Correcting the 'rock back sit'

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pblove
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Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pblove » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:40 am

Initially, I made the mistake of taking basic obed classes with what I call 'pet obed trainers' and now we have a rock back sit.
anyone have tips on correcting this?

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Amie
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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby Amie » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:48 am

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pblove » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:25 am

Amie wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I will try my best to 'splain it on keyboard
when most dogs are asked to 'sit' they sort of roll back on their haunches when they sit and their front feet/legs move back with them(rock back)
a proper 'sit' in obedience ring , it looks like their front feet are planted firm, front feet do not move from place and they tuck their back legs up under them as they sit (so they don't look like they are 'rockign back ' on their butt/haunches

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby Adrianne » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:14 am

hmm... I think you're looking for a snappier sit, try increasing the speed?

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pumpkinpunk
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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pumpkinpunk » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:20 am

I am no pro at this, but you could teach him 2 different sits. Maybe re-name this rock sit to something else, and then marker him when he does the proper sit with a higher value treat.

Chance knows 2 different lie downs a sphinx pose and one where he takes a hip which I think is more comfortable for him in longer downs. He learned "down" as sphinx and "relax" as taking a hip laying down. I'm not a pro trainer (yet starting school in Sept for it! So this is just my guess at it) so I'm sure others have better ideas, I come up with weird names for commands and weird techniques, but it works for him and I right now so I go with it. Hopefully this will help you! Good luck!

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TB
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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby TB » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:36 am

Ack! The joys of correcting the improper foundation :po:

The tuck sit, which is what you want, is simply a muscle memory exercise. I point out to my students right away, the diff between a rock back sit and a tuck sit, so they know what they're doing. Some dogs have a harder time because of the way they're built--- I have a couple corgi students who don't have very good sits,but it's kinda just one of those things.

You're just going to have to practice, again and again, the proper mechanics of the sit with Paige. You can generally lure a tuck sit by holding food above and forward of the dog's face. Not back over the head, which will cause the dog to rock back. The dog should be reaching forward and up to help it bring it's haunches underneath. If you work position changes and pull the dog up from a down, often times they will use the correct mechanics. You can also do a bunch of forward moving "scoots" luring the dog forward and upward one step and then asking for a sit. I generally will get down with a dog who's having trouble and use a hand on their hips to sort of help them scoot it in. Mess around, find what works and then practice the heck out of it.

The reason a tuck sit is preferred in obedience is that if your dog has a rock back sit, he/she will often have poor halts and poor fronts. It's a minor concern overall, but if you want 40 point heeling, you teach a tuck sit for good halts.

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby lilangel » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:11 pm

:goodpost:

what she said.

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby KadillacGrrl » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:24 pm

Oh great, something ELSE I need to worry about? LOL.

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pblove » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:55 am

KadillacGrrl wrote:Oh great, something ELSE I need to worry about? LOL.

lol

thank you for the suggestions' ladies
TB I wish I had found a good traienr earyl on so all of these foundation mistakes would not be a concern now.

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby TB » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:07 pm

Yep, it's hard to find a good trainer, isn't it? Plus, you just don't know when you go to train your first dog, so unless you're lucky, you usually end up with poor instruction the first time around. Live and learn, right :))

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby Doggie Do Right » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:35 pm

Agreed! I do whats called 'skip sits' with my dogs. Great muscle memory exercise, teaches the tuck and straight sits. I will try to get video of one of the pups doing it...

Kie

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pblove » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:32 pm

Doggie Do Right wrote:Agreed! I do whats called 'skip sits' with my dogs. Great muscle memory exercise, teaches the tuck and straight sits. I will try to get video of one of the pups doing it...

Kie

would love to see video of your 'skip sits'
thanks Kie!

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:33 pm

I'd like to see video of both so that I can understand what you guys are talking about if anyone has a link!

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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby pblove » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:24 am

I don't have a video camera, sorry.

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Red
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Re: Correcting the 'rock back sit'

Postby Red » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:40 pm

Sharon, I found a few video's of Jack approaching tucked sits and trimmed them.Maybe they can give you a visual idea of what you could do.You can use free shaping and taking some time or you can easily fix the problem by luring and building muscle memory though many reps and by many I really mean many.Either way muscle memory is needed.Use your lure up and forward, to almost manipulate a "tall" sit and keep weight on the front legs rather than moving your lure so that the dog is sort of pushed to rock back on his rear end. The dog's mouth is on the food so your hand, if moved correctly, helps the dog to move into a better sit.If you have a nose on fingers behavior you can use that to help the dog as well.

On this video you see luring this before the first transition. With Paige take steps back and think of creating a whole new behavior. She thinks that the way she sits is fine so you need to help her to change he way she moves into a sit and it might take a bit of time.Take small approximations of the behavior such as extension of the neck forward, begging to move rear end under, putting weight on front legs instead of dropping back first etc.



You should see a progression on the video below, where the dog is hopping into his front legs.I am looking for both back legs to move in at the same time and get as closer as possible to the back of the front feet.Jack is built long but also have a nob of a tail that sometime must be uncomfortable to sit on.He can't tuck it or lay it flat so it hits the ground. I have seen him attempt to tuck in more and reposition himself to allow the tail to be free. I am assuming that it is uncomfortable and considering that this is usually a dog who tries hard I am not going to ask him more and risk that tucked in sit become annoying to accomplish.I am also looking for his chin and head to push up into my crotch area (sorry, could not think of a better way to put it at the moment).That way he maintains his neck extended high and it is easier to keep his weight onto the front.It also gives him a specific target for the front.



So plenty of that, maybe using a gate or wall to help the dog not to swing out.It is a short cut for sure but it is not the kind that can hurt a dog.Don't ask for "front" just yet, forget the cue if you were using it before. You are changing the meaning of it and , actually, you might want to add a new one when the dog's behavior is ready for a cue to be introduced.It is the mechanical movements that you are looking for, for as long as it takes for the dog to be fluent and comfortable doing it.


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