Schutzhund

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MissKitty
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Re: Schutzhund

Postby MissKitty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:42 pm

mommy2kane wrote:
nameless_5r wrote:I think that Schutzhund is an awesome training tool for bullies as long as the biting is removed from the curriculum.


Then it's no longer Schutzhund.


x2, without bitework Schutzhund would be OB and tracking......which there are already competitions for.

This is my two cents-
I was a lot like you nameless_5r, when I first learned about Schutzhund/Ring sport etc, it was un-thinkable to have teach a Pit Bull to bite a human. And surely any well bred Pit Bull would never do that!
But once I learned more and really got into the sport, I learned how wrong that view is.

but i also noticed that the dogs are used as protection dogs were a man wearing a thick padded suit is bitten by the dog.


As said before, a suit is used in Ring, not Schutzhund. And I think an important point to make is that (in most cases) Schutzhund dogs are not protection dogs, they are sport dogs.

The way I (and my dog) view bite work is a big game. The sleeve is the same as a tug toy, he is not biting the decoy, he is biting a toy that just happens to be on the decoys arm, not in his hand. Remove the sleeve and he runs up and gives kisses to the helper that he was biting a minute ago. Apollo is all about the sleeve, not the person. Which is what I want in my dog.
Some people do train for civil dogs, but I (and most Pit owners I have met) train for sport.

It is the highest level of OB and extremely important, if I can control my dog while he is in his highest drive, then I can control him in pretty much any situation.
IMO the best way to teach a dog not to bite is to teach it when it is appropriate to bite. And to obey commands no matter how high of a drive they are in.
Like this, even when completely dedicated to the bite, you can call them off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KTf_Y1s_lI

nameless_5r wrote:
It should take way too much work to get a bully to show any type of aggression towards a human.


I honestly think it would be nearly impossible to get my Sch trained Bully to show aggression to a person. He can be biting a decoy, then 20 minutes later be home, listening to commands from a 5 year old he has never met. My idea of a properly trained Sch dog is they should have no aggression (if human aggressive a dog should not not pass their BH), but a high drive and lots of control.
Here is a good video that shows how dogs trained to high levels in these sports but are NOT human aggressive (watch to the end)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonfarris ... M8CvsRvIMI

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ProudMommy77
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Re: Schutzhund

Postby ProudMommy77 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:13 pm

Adrianne wrote:My current Schutzhund dog can't seem to realize every stranger at my gate is not a fun buddy and yet on the field he's excelling, go figure. He works primarily off prey drive and play drive currently but I expect his defense drive to build with age. He's a traditional sport breed.


And there is the difference between using a traditional dog vs. non traditional. Dottie blows most of the traditional dogs out of the water, she's fast, loud, high drive, works in a nice combo of drives that I prefer, but bring her off the field, and she is a typical happy go lucky APBT. She makes the Czech puppy her age look like a pussy cat, and most of the adults. She is more than happy to give the decoy kisses, and love, and any other stranger there, coming onto the field, she looks like a raging blood thirsty dog, dragging, and pulling, snarling, barking, screaming announcing her arrival to the decoy on the field, she does look scary thirty two or three pounds of scariness, more scary than some of the seasoned dogs there. Now, if someone would happen to be standing there with a cookie, or wanting to give her a little pet, she would stop what she is doing for a moment, to oblige and then move on. The beautiful thing about a well bred APBT, is the discretion that have for sports like this.

I suspect my Mal, will not have this same personality, judging from her personality, she's going to be a fight driven dog, with a touch of prey, but more defense/civil type of dog at the end of the day. Fun times for me....we have a long time before she sees the field, so only time will tell. Bug, is a nice little puppy, she's a happy go luck butt head, who enjoys meeting strangers, I do expect this to change with time. I am sure she will become more aloof as she matures. But, I do not think for a minute she will ever show the same discretion that my APBT does when it comes to this sport.

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby MissKitty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:24 pm

^ Exactly, which is why I will be sticking to Pits in Sch/Ring, I want a dog that does incredible work on the field but walks off and is my pet.
Mals are amazing dogs but I want a dog with an 'off' button roflmao

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby ProudMommy77 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:28 pm

roflmao roflmao ...that is exactly why, I wanted a more traditional breed of dog, I wanted a more serious dog.

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby MissKitty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:37 pm

You picked the right breed!

I love Mals.....from a distance. I am far too lazy to keep up with them lol
I want to go non-traditional, so I am looking at getting a Rat Terrier and doing FR roflmao

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby ProudMommy77 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:43 pm

MissKitty wrote:You picked the right breed!

I love Mals.....from a distance. I am far too lazy to keep up with them lol
I want to go non-traditional, so I am looking at getting a Rat Terrier and doing FR roflmao


I have seen a Patterdale, and a Jagd terrier doing FR.

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MissKitty
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Re: Schutzhund

Postby MissKitty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:45 pm

^ I have seen a Jagd terrier training for it on YouTube, but never a Patterdale.
Do you know if any have competed in it?

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby nameless_5r » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:52 pm

ok so i went back and did more research and it seems that i had the two "sports" as being one but apparently its two distinct activities; however, i still stand against any type of "bite work" against any human decoys/sleeves. these activities were meant for a different type of dog(according to what i have read) not for bullies. there are many other games where pits can be involved that have nothing to do with bite work. all it takes is for one dumb**S(excuse my language) to say: "look...they are training the pitbull to attack now," and then we have another problem on our hands. You guys know there are a lot of people like that and besides...why train a dog to bite at all......pitbulls are not meant to be that. There was a time when a complete stranger could walk into a bullie's back yard and steal the dog because they were bred not to bite humans or their sleeves. Well....this has certainly turned into quite a discussion and to be honest i just wanted to give my two cents from the get go......so i appreciate you guys listening to me. see you at other topics!

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby Adrianne » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:29 pm

grumble grumble...

I think a rat terrier would be fun not to mention funny but a sort of a wash at protection sport, this coming from owning two Deckers standard line bred dogs out of firemnt bred for hog hunting (and performing). I could easily be incorrect though.

I knew a guy who trained their JRT in schH but could never compete because the dog couldn't lift the dumbells. However the dog made an excellent training dog for their daughter!

I'm hooked on Mals but someday it'd be neat if I found a really hot headed Beauceron. Most Beaucs I have seen though have been exceedingly mellow (insert kinda boring) dogs.

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby ProudMommy77 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:28 pm

Adrianne wrote:Most Beaucs I have seen though have been exceedingly mellow (insert kinda boring) dogs.


there is one that trains at another club (they come up from time to time), the dog is on fire! the dog is just all go, go, and more go....but I love my Malinois.

a side note, Ellie on here, her Milo, has IPO dogs in his ped. one is a 3 dog. so anything is possible.

nameless_5r wrote:ok so i went back and did more research and it seems that i had the two "sports" as being one but apparently its two distinct activities; however, i still stand against any type of "bite work" against any human decoys/sleeves. these activities were meant for a different type of dog(according to what i have read) not for bullies. there are many other games where pits can be involved that have nothing to do with bite work. all it takes is for one dumb**S(excuse my language) to say: "look...they are training the pitbull to attack now," and then we have another problem on our hands. You guys know there are a lot of people like that and besides...why train a dog to bite at all......pitbulls are not meant to be that. There was a time when a complete stranger could walk into a bullie's back yard and steal the dog because they were bred not to bite humans or their sleeves. Well....this has certainly turned into quite a discussion and to be honest i just wanted to give my two cents from the get go......so i appreciate you guys listening to me. see you at other topics!


As with everything else, one bad apple can give everyone else a bunch crap to deal with. All sports are like this. People do dumb crap, and those of us that are doing the right thing, have to listen to the comments, and the grumbling, and the whiny stuff. (no offense) ..just saying. It's something that no one will ever escape.

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby Red Chrome » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:50 am

I started in Schutzhund with Red, my APBT. She is a phenomenal little dog and a lot like Dottie sounds. Hell on wheels on the field and loving every person when she came off. However, as she matured,her temperament changed a lot I attribute this to bad breeding. I retired her due to physical issues and other than the occasional outing for fun, she doesn't see the field anymore.

I got a GSD for my competition sport dog. He is AHHHH-MAZZZZING! I love this dog and eventually he will go far. Money and time holds us back currently. He was always VERY friendly, OVER the TOP friendly. Now, he has really matured and he will alert me to things that are off. He is still friendly and as long as you didn't have bad intentions could more than likely walk right into my house. However, if you gave him 1 iota of a reason to doubt you, he would. I do however, cross-train him in PP work. He is showing amazing ability on a suit! I also train him in AKC OB, Agility and Schutzhund. He also goes into the nursing home my grandma is in and LOVES the residents.

To me with any breed, it's about having a nice balance. I used to wish that he was a little more defensive than what he was but as he matured, he developed that very nicely and the balance is wonderful. This is a dog that can go anywhere with me and I don't have to worry about anything.

I think there is nothing wrong with a PROPERLY/WELL bred APBT doing Schutzhund! In fact they are fun dogs to work!

Adrianne-I know of an EXCELLENT Beauc breeder in California if you are interested! lol lol Her dogs are doing FR and oh, man are they nice!!!

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby Adrianne » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:20 am

Oh it will be forever before I really look at one but they're a breed that I enjoy their size and looks and I imagine them as hard dogs but every Beauc I meet (even the two flyball ones) are wonderfully sweet and stable dogs but I need some more tenacity in my life. I've got mister perfect nothing can set this dog off already(who has strict instructions he'll never die), I need some crazy to spice up my life. hehehe

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Re: Schutzhund

Postby Red Chrome » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:26 pm

Adrianne wrote:Oh it will be forever before I really look at one but they're a breed that I enjoy their size and looks and I imagine them as hard dogs but every Beauc I meet (even the two flyball ones) are wonderfully sweet and stable dogs but I need some more tenacity in my life. I've got mister perfect nothing can set this dog off already(who has strict instructions he'll never die), I need some crazy to spice up my life. hehehe


Yeah. I have one of those. Don't get me wrong, there are moments when I wonder, OMFG, What did I do? But I love him and he really is a phenomenal dog. I'll never have another like him, he is just irreplaceable to me.

I really like Beaucs and the one I met from her breeding is......well...crazy. In a good way. lol lol


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