OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
white0nr1ce
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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Thu May 19, 2011 3:42 pm

Stormi wrote:
Red wrote:White0nr1ce, never allow anyone to train your dog "out of sight". There are trainers who are scumbags and some of them are taken in high consideration because they have a couple of titles, reviews and what not, but when you look in to the reality of what they are doing.....it is sad and worth of an ass kicking. It is important that you learn to work with your dog, it serves no purpose for someone else to do it, since you are the one who lives with the dog for most of the time.


And to add to that, never trust anyone who tells you a dog can be trained or have their behavior modified by a guaranteed date. Dogs are living, breathing creatures, not robots. Behavior cannot be stamped with a guarantee, and should not be done away from the owner as the owner is the one who needs the knowledge to continue the training. "Guaranteed" translates to "will use whatever method and force necessary", and I very rarely come across someone who does board and train and doesn't resort to cruel and harsh methods for that "quick fix" appearance.


Hind sight is 20/20. The guaruntee for me was more or less I could pay $X-amt and they will continue training him until he learns it and I will top out at that cost, rather 1/3 of that for a two week course, in several series to get him to the point that was promised where I went... then having to repay to take the classes if he didn't take to them right away or needed more one on one. I wasn't thinking of it as an any means necessary gauruntee... I feel like an idiot typing it all now, but it was presented to me in a way that almost seemed like it was what I needed... part sly salesman and probably part anxiousness on my part because I really thought I was doing a good thing by getting him into training, but I definitely learned my lesson.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Megan » Thu May 19, 2011 5:33 pm

I would be greatly upset if something was done to my dog without me knowing. It's unfortunate that some people will do things behind a customers back...

Honestly, I think a good training facility wouldn't give you a "deadline". Where we take Gavin they do use the e-collar if you choose to use it. You are given the option, they won't force it on you. I also like that while the initial class was an 8 week course if he did not improve, and was not ready to "graduate" at the end of the 8 weeks they'd take the time with me, at no additional cost, until he was ready to "graduate". We are now in the advanced program which again is an 8 week course. However, after the 8 weeks is up I can bring him back at any point in his lifetime for a refresher free of cost. The purchase of the 8 week advanced training is actually unlimited. There are dogs there that completed the course years ago, however the owners bring them back every so often to keep them up on everything. They do offer the "daily" training where you are not present... however as much as I like my training facility, and trust the trainers we work with I want to be there with my dog. The only person I trust 100% with my dog is myself.

white0nr1ce
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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Fri May 20, 2011 7:33 am

Megan wrote:I would be greatly upset if something was done to my dog without me knowing. It's unfortunate that some people will do things behind a customers back...

Honestly, I think a good training facility wouldn't give you a "deadline". Where we take Gavin they do use the e-collar if you choose to use it. You are given the option, they won't force it on you. I also like that while the initial class was an 8 week course if he did not improve, and was not ready to "graduate" at the end of the 8 weeks they'd take the time with me, at no additional cost, until he was ready to "graduate". We are now in the advanced program which again is an 8 week course. However, after the 8 weeks is up I can bring him back at any point in his lifetime for a refresher free of cost. The purchase of the 8 week advanced training is actually unlimited. There are dogs there that completed the course years ago, however the owners bring them back every so often to keep them up on everything. They do offer the "daily" training where you are not present... however as much as I like my training facility, and trust the trainers we work with I want to be there with my dog. The only person I trust 100% with my dog is myself.


He was in a six week intermediate class, but maybe I described it weird or it did not translate well over text... any additional training they have to do will be free and after a certain amount of follow up training and private lessons it would be a refund. That actually sounds similar to the place I was going. If I were ever to bring him for boarding or daycare, they work with him on his obedience. If it was discussed beforehand I would have had a better attitude about it, but I guess I didn't ask my questions direct enough... the e-collar was ever discussed... they had the prongs in there store front and not the ecollars, and I really did not think about it until they handed it to me. I guess as a dog training facility they did not feel the need to disclose that, I guess... what did I expect? The cost of the training included "a custom fitted training collar" and we had discussed the prong, and when I went to pick up they gave me the prong AND the e-collar that was never mentioned at all whatsoever. It was like there was never any presentation of that product when I had several questions about methods and types of collars... If they do the UKC prep class while I'm there, I may go and discuss things further with the owner. If the only way they will train is through boarding or while I am at work, I will definitely not return.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:26 pm

:goodpost:

Agreed on "time and place" aspect.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Jellin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:08 pm

just use a choker properly.

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OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Stormi » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:23 pm

Just how does one "properly" asphyxiate a dog?

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Jellin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:29 pm

Correcting a dog is not applying constant pressure with a choker. Like I said, learn to use one the way its meant to be used.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby MetaMuffin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:46 pm

roflmao

A dog collar known as a "choker" or "choke chain" doesn't choke a dog!

roflmao

Try it on yourself some time.

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OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Stormi » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:35 pm

MetaMuffin wrote:
A dog collar known as a "choker" or "choke chain" doesn't choke a dog!


It's just that pesky name and choking sensation and occasional treachea damage that gives us that misguided idea, right? ;)

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby lilangel » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:06 pm

Stormi wrote:
MetaMuffin wrote:
A dog collar known as a "choker" or "choke chain" doesn't choke a dog!


It's just that pesky name and choking sensation and occasional treachea damage that gives us that misguided idea, right? ;)

lol

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby arlene2010 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:07 pm

mommy2kane wrote:
wegobad wrote:
So, you're doing Schutzhund I guess? Excellent. When you say "the 'cookie cookie' approach didn't work," I have some questions that I hope you'll answer.
1) How do you know it didn't work for your dog? What did "it's not working" look like, in your dog's case?
2) Have you had success using "the 'cookie cookie' approach" in training other dogs?
3) To what do you attribute the failure of "the 'cookie cookie' approach?"
4) What did you use for a reward marker, when you were trying "the 'cookie cookie' approach?"



1 ) It didn't work, as in, it never gained his focus. It didn't stop him from "lighting up" at other dogs, it wasn't exciting enough to have him focus on me and not the other dog, etc. "It's not working" looked like a little 40 lb APBT doing everything in his power to get to another dog. It looked like a HOT dog, lunging and carrying on, and trying to get to that other dog.
2 ) This is my first real dog and the first dog I've trained.
3 ) My dog's level of dog aggression - he'd rather fight than eat or be praised.
4 ) There was no reward marker, to be honest. The method did not work, at all (for my dog), and it didn't get that far. We tried food, praise, toys, etc - nothing.

wegobad wrote:
And, because I don't know that much about Schutzhund, a few other questions --
5) Is the dog allowed to wear the e-collar during competition?
6) Are you allowed to use the e-collar to give corrections during competition?
7) Does your dog know when you can correct him with the e-collar, and when you lack that capability (either because it's not the right collar, or it's against the rules, or whatever reason)?
8) What's your backup plan if the dog figures out that you can't correct him sometimes?



5 ) As Erin said, no, the dog is not allowed to wear the e-collar during competition.
6 ) No. The e-collar is a training tool - it is not allowed on the field during competition.
7 ) Sure, some dogs are collar smart. Kane has gotten that way. Again, it's a training tool - it's used during training to proof certain exercises, to get proper positioning, to correct off-leash. The goal is to have the dog ready (trained) before going out onto the trial field.
8 ) I don't use the e-collar every single training session. Right before we were going for our BH, the e-collar was removed and training was done without it, to get ready for the trial. A fursaver is also used during training (always, even when the e-collar is on) because this is the collar that WILL be on during the trial. I do use leash corrections, as well.

wegobad wrote:
You see, it's puzzling to me, because I know of other high-drive DA dogs who have titled in various dog sports like Schutzhund, who were trained with positive reinforcement / negative punishment, and not with shock collars, prong collars, etc. The laws governing behavior and training should apply to your dog as well as they do to other dogs. So, if I knew why this didn't work for your dog, it might be illuminating.

I admit that, from your use of the condescending characterization of positive reinforcement as "the 'cookie cookie' approach," I suspect that you didn't properly use "clicker training" methods. I expect that you weren't careful to stay under threshold, or you didn't use a sufficiently rewarding reinforcer, or your rate of reinforcement was too low, or you raised criteria for reinforcement too rapidly (without enough successful repetitions to solidify the behavior), or your early sessions went too long, or your timing was inconsistent, or you didn't break the target behavior into sufficiently small gradations for shaping, or most likely, some combination of those errors. In short, I expect you didn't give "the 'cookie cookie' approach" a fair chance with your dog.

But maybe I'm wrong, which would be pretty exciting, because then maybe I can learn something. Either way, I hope you'll give us a description of what "cookie cookie" training you did with your dog, and how you judged that it wasn't working.



Let me make it clear that I wasn't trying to be condescending in my "cookie cookie" comments. I had genuinely received training advice to use "cookies" and treats for dog aggression. Unfortunately, these people never saw my dog, and didn't realize that a cookie was not going to do the trick. I didn't use clicker training methods. My definition of "cookie cookie" was using food, toys, etc to redirect my dog's focus. I didn't slap on an e-collar when I first got my dog. As a novice owner, I'm sure I went too fast in the beginning, but after consulting w/ some trainers, I stepped back. I worked on getting focus w/out distractions, then with just the sound of another dog, then a dog way off in the distance. You're right - there wasn't a sufficient reward - why? Because NOTHING was as big of a reward as that other dog. In my eyes, I gave it a fair shot. It didn't work for my dog. My dog is not a "slightly" DA dog who "might" go after another dog, or "might" just play rough. He was a liability in the wrong hands. So, when that doesn't work, other methods are consulted. Again, my main opinion is that each and every dog is different. Sure, someone may have a dog who responds to clicker-training, food, toys, etc. Some may have a dog who doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I use toys and food in my training as well. For rewards. Mostly food and praise, I should say. I use an e-collar for training, I correct for ill-behavior, or to perfect certain exercises. But just because someone uses an e-collar, doesn't mean they don't do positive things as well. When he gets something right, I praise - verbally, playing around - Kane thrives off of this. He's not damaged at the e-collar or leash correction he received before. I won't bring other people into this debate (via names), but there are plenty of people who know my dog. They know my dog isn't damaged, tortured, etc. He's got good temperament, doesn't break down easily. This dog jumps right back up after a correction - it's just training.

wegobad wrote:
I understand the temptation to diss positive punishments and compulsion. From my point of view, it's an unnecessarily cruel way to train a dog. There's a better way, and the info has been available for years. Still, we owe it to ourselves to behave politely. Behaving rudely just makes people defensive, and makes it harder for them to change their minds.


And I can understand how someone who doesn't use these methods and doesn't agree with these methods may think it's "cruel", "torture", etc. I, personally, don't believe in a "better" way - this goes back to my personal view that every dog is different - there are different ways for different dogs. I agree in behaving politely, as I hope I have behaved in this post. Me, personally, I'm not going to change my mind. I have success with my choice of training methods, my dog is well-adjusted, and this is the necessary route for my dog and what I want to do.




this is about the "cookie cookie" method. i watch alot of cesar millan's stuff, and have read a book or two of his. and it seems that throwing a dog a toy or treat only says "good boy" for what he just did,or is about to do. so i agree with you, it wouldn't of worked AT ALL with my last dog either. he was very DA, nothing would work, so i carried a break stick around just in case, and made sure i had a sturdy leash,an extra leash, and a cell phone to call police or AC when i walked him. behavior problems like that come from dominance issues, and or low self esteem that the dog has of itself. so yea i wished i had an e-collar. although it would only help with one incident at a time. pitbulls are very high prey driven, know their strength, and fight to make their point, as they have been embedded with from the start of the breed, it's just something that some pit owners have to eccept when choosing the breed. herding dogs are born with herding in their instinct. i've NEVER trained or practiced this with my GSD and he practically came with it from birth. he does it to the cats, and even a group of people, i've tried and tried and tried to correct it because it makes people nervous and the cats hide. but 8 months later, although not as bad, he still does it.

i would also like to add for others out there, not saying you, don't know how you and your dogs relationship is, but, a reminder to all, if you don't act as the pack leader, then who do you think will try to run things? has nothing to do really with actions, but if you feel deep down, that you ARE above the dog, that you are the one who makes the rules, and eventually let that energy out and into actions then everything else that comes with a "good dog" will follow.
if you are worried about other dogs, then your dog will be, if you are pulling tension on a leash then the dog on the other end of that leash will reflect that tension, and inturn that dog you've worried about near you will catch the drift of your guy's joint tension and worried energy. just take a moment, and deeeep breath and stop for just a second, let a little slack on the leash and forget about that other dog.

not saying i know it all, i'm still learning. but since i'm learning something that has worked for my high drive dog. then i hope that it can be passed to others.
stay positive, stay calm. and know your place as an owner in the pecking order. ;)

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Red » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:14 pm

Perhaps watching less Cesar and learning more about dog behavior and what drives it would be incredibly helpful.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby arlene2010 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:41 am

Red wrote:Perhaps watching less Cesar and learning more about dog behavior and what drives it would be incredibly helpful.


nice pun, but i wasn't pointing that towards you.it was for people that could gain something from it. if it didn't offend you because of some weird reason, you wouldn't of had to put your two cents in. FYI, i do. so, thank you. i read alot.and watch cause and effect and reaction of a dogs behavior. In my opinion, and this isn't truth or fact, but opinion. everything a dog does has alot do with it's owner. dogs ARE pack animals, they do what is expected of the alpha. they react to what the pack leader is feeling. now if you're not the pack leader, or try to act as, but not have a KNOWING that you indeed ARE. then that dog is going to have some serious behavior what we call "problems". when really it's just making up for what you are NOT.calling the shots. kinda confuses them really when you use words and tools to correct aggression,possession, ect, and then not follow through with the rest of the responsibilities of a pack leader. i agreed with the e collar because it acts as a quick jolt of diversion. like what would happen if a dog did something that wasn't unacceptable by it's leader, as quick grab of the neck with the mouth, to say hey your not permitted to do that. i said i was learning, as we all do every single day we spend with our dogs. thanks for the "your STUPID" remark, but no thanks. me and mine have an understanding of who runs the show. ;)

other behaviors, chewing on things, digging, things like that, have nothing to do with an owner. so yes i agree with you on that, you would have to watch and see what causes that type of behavior. most of the time is because it needs something to do (from my experience). BOREDOM, or like most canines, which where all bred for purposes,(jobs), needs a job to do.

sorry for trailing off subject but. just wanted you to know, it wasn't an insult to you or anyone. that everyone has different ways or methods of understanding a dog, and ways that match those methods to correct behaviors. i do believe in discipline, but in an instructive, guiding way. not locking the dog up or hitting them. dogs are in the moment animals, so you have to be quick, and catch their attention,one very quick jab of the tip of your four fingers, or a quick shock, will be more effective, and attention grabbing than 15 minutes of crating a dog that made a decision that was created within a half a second.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:04 am

I have nothing against Negative punishment discipline.Removing something the dog wants.

Dominance is defined by the ability to control or regulate access to resources. And correcting aggression? How does that help when you should be trying to change the emotional reaction to the stimulus. If they receive a correction each time that can only add to the negative association and the aggression is simply suppressed, the anxiety is still there.
Instead of getting a dog that displays many warning signs, you can get a dog that goes straight to a bite.

http://petbehaviorsolutions.blogspot.co ... ining.html



I also wish the term "Alpha" would crawl under a rock because it is so incorrectly used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

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OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Stormi » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:29 am

Here's food for thought: "dominance" doesn't transcend species.


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