Help... dogfight

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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MkatUmich
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby MkatUmich » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:17 pm

Stormi wrote:
Maximus wrote:I would say DO NOT SEPARATE. Your supposed to correct them and stop the problem at level one. Whoever started the fight, closely watch him/her. Before the fight starts stop it. keep repeating the "scene" where the fight started to brew. This should fix the problem within a few days. If you separate them all your doing is avoiding the problem. Also since its a first time happening, this should be fixed very fast.


This is very dangerous advice. Properly planned behavior modification protocols all include some level of management. It has nothing to do with avoidance, it has everything to do with keeping the animal(s) in question safe and disallow the possibility of reengagement of the behavior(s). In the event of a dog fight, "you", the supposed leader, is completely irrelevant to the argument, and the suggestion of placing these dogs in the same scenario for the exact purpose of failure is just stupid.

OP - where are you located? I'd be happy to suggest a qualified behavior consultant who can assist you with reintroduction.


SE Michigan. Right now we are essentially combining a crate and rotate policy with a shutdown for Starry. So Gauge is really only crated when Starry is out, or when we are gone of course or sleeping. Starry seemed very lively and happy to see us this morning so I see that as a good sign. All they have really done is sniff each others cages (sheet over the cage), when we did some supervised interactions they mostly sniffed or licked each other but we have to keep Starry from getting nervous which we are afraid will trigger something, especially with Gauges tendency to get hyper and bounce off walls, hence the shutdown and seperation right now to get her confidence up so she won't be scared of Gauge.

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BrokenAquarian
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby BrokenAquarian » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:25 pm

Maximus wrote:
jamielvsaustin wrote:***sings*** One of these is not like the other.

Maximus how can you offer advise like that when you don't even know what it looks like when your dog plays with another. Perhaps a little more research is in order for you. It is our job as an owner to protect these dogs. If the OP left his dogs to work it out and only stepped in when a fight broke out, he'd likely have a dead dog within a week.

The way I see it, dogs always fight when they are in packs. They get over it because the leader does not allow it.


That's not true. If there are two dogs who have a conflict - it can very easily turn into a situation where they don't care what the owner or leader thinks/wants. They hate the other dog so much that they ARE going to try and get rid of it.

Dogs in packs do kill each other. It happens when there are conflicting personalities and resource situations. It's not natural for 2 conflicting dogs to stay in the same pack. One will eventually force the other one out - run them off, or kill them.


That whole "Let them work it out" advice that people often give, is wrong most of the time - especially when people don't realize how serious the situation may be.

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Stormi
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Help... dogfight

Postby Stormi » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:43 pm

Lisa Patrona is in Troy, is that within travel distance of you? Her website:

http://www.woofology.com/

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MkatUmich
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby MkatUmich » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:03 pm

Stormi wrote:Lisa Patrona is in Troy, is that within travel distance of you? Her website:

http://www.woofology.com/


I work in Troy. We are supposed to work with our rescue(Paws for Life) with a behaviorist but it's always good to have more resources. Thanks.

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MarMar
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby MarMar » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:09 pm

Make sure that the person who your rescue works with is an actual certified behaviourist, or at least a very skilled and experienced trainer who does not use aversive methods (and is not representing themselves as a behaviourist when they are not). Many many trainers, ranging from sub par to downright dangerous, call themselves "behaviorists" because there is no one to STOP them from doing so.

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luvnstuff
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby luvnstuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:23 am

One thing I have found over the years is there really isnt "just out of the blue". Things have built for awhile, one dog is being a bit pushy and one is being submissive, and we sometimes as humans dont see this , we see it as like the one nipping at the other during play as "oh its just dog behaviour" . but really it isnt, it was our lack of controlling the moments that leads the dogs to believe and to think they "can" and "must" control the moments. (leading to arguments and etc.)
Can dogs live together after moments like this. Sometimes , sometimes not. But it can take some time to get things under your control. Not the dogs control.
There are behaviorists out there that are good, buyer beware tho, if they rush or tell you to strap on some device that will magically fix this, they are out in left field. RUN.
The advice earlier with the humans rule and pack mentatlity as noted is EXTREMLEY EXTREMLY DANGEROUS (inser the guy recently March 30th in Holland Michigan that was trying to break up his two dogs and fell into the fight and got very injured, the neighbors called the police, now all the dogs will probably die and the owner is very hurt).
DANGEROUS.
These are terriers by nature these dogs can easily if left untrained in high stress moments can go into red zones in their mind and bite everything within reach when arguing (you, kill each other, etc etc). Its scary and it has to be understood but not feared.
Gaining control of your home is step one.
WORKING ONE DOG ONE AT A TIME ! (as my trainer taught me, you DONT have 2 dogs, you have ONE DOG 2 TIMES)
Excercise /play one at a time, toys and fun times can trigger excitablity -jealously-fighting
Give this a GOOD MONTH of one dog at a time. ONE DOG AT A TIME, allow them to see the humans have full control and have created a SAFE enviroment for them. This will lead to a dog feeling secure and lessen the idea in their mind that they "HAVE" to control their world.
Make yourself worthy of looking up to.
Use Find ME For Food - nothing in life is for free thinking. No treats or toys for being just there.
Want the toy to be thrown? WEll make the dog sit first THEN throw.
BE SURE TO EXCERCISE each dog indivual, excercise, tug, walking, running , biting (toys of course) IS STRESS RELIEF.
Whistle dixie when YOU feel stressed, -act as if you just dont care-no over coddling, no oooo you poooor dogggy wooggggy pooo pooo -this makes YOU look like the weakest link ever! I say whistle for its hard to feel stressed and whistle at the same time, really it is!!

Crate, rotate, excercise, for ONE FULL MONTH.
Then have dogs out only on leash.. able to reach each other, but no ability to jump, hump, nip, command, reprimand each other. HAve humans in full control, just watch tv for a bit or sit on the porch , calm easy does it moments. NO TOYS. treats are ok..but dog have to sit, and take one small treat from human hand.. no competition.
remember YOU and all humans are IN CONTROL.

Once the dogs start to see that humans really are control you will see the tense start to leave their bodies, BUT, you also have to in this time really teach yourself what their stress signs are. (the dangerous poster was right you have to break this up BEFORE IT HAPPENS, not when the sheeet hits the fan=too late). But really learn what is the FIRST SIGN OF STRESS -baring teeth? TOO LATE, look for ears, tense shoulders, body tension, this is when you take command,
IF on leash, you see one dog being tense, just take the leash (leash is THE no.1 best way to control your dog), and walk away or have the dogs just walk in opposite directions, no need to yell, hit, flip out, JUST CONTROL the moment, walk in a circle or two with the dog, and just WHISTLE DIXIE (remember you dont care , you just are not going to allow any crazyness at all! ) CALM COOL COLLECTED this is you.

Then just keep doing easy peasy momemts , you want to end on a happy moment for all dogs. This hopefully will lead you to a path of calmness. But you will find that you will probably always have to be in control and it may be that your dogs will NEVER be able to romp and play together, some just CAN NOT. Its our job to learn their limitations and their boundries and stay within those safely and only venture out upon training .

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MkatUmich
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Re: Help... dogfight

Postby MkatUmich » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:50 am

If anybody wants an update things seem to be going in the right direction. Did crate and rotate for a good two weeks, most of which was essentially a shutdown for Starry who is the fearful stressed out dog of the two. Week three (which was this past week) we allowed them to hang out together indoors but no play. Basicly lounging on the couch or chewing bones. If they got too wound up or tense one went in the crate. Exception to this is their nightly runs which they have been able to do together, but only in week three. Just these past few days they have been allowed limited outside together playtime, supervised. They seem back to their normal selves, we are just being careful with them still and keeping a close eye out for signs of stress.


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