How to deal with extreme dog aggression

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nic
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby nic » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:01 pm

I have had massive success training my very high drive SBT with positive reinforcment,yes in her life she has been pulled back on a lead,I'm not gonna say she hasn't,but not in relation to my training her to behave nicely round other dogs.
When I got her at 12 weeks,she saw running dogs as prey,if the other dog was wound up and/or running fast,she wanted to chase and attack them.
She also tried to fight with other dogs she met whilst on the lead.All her reactiveness has been dealt with by reinforcing what I like,it didn't take a long time (in my mind) and she is trustworthy to be off lead around other dogs,and now competes in agility...give us some time and she will be I believe top of her game,and all trained positively.
I've trained dogs the 'old way',and the results simply aren't as reliable doing it that way,when all you're doing is teaching the dog to supress what it wants to do,you are not making the dog WANT not to do those behaviours.

This tiny clip shows Floozie's desire to get the job done,the screaming and barking is what she used to do when dogs ran around her,but she would really be and sound frenzied.This is the noise she makes any time she is restrained at the start of any agility work,she is desperate to do it.

http://youtu.be/9rELkG83oE8

Now look at the self control she has here,this is her first ever run at a show,there's 8 or 9 rings running back to back with only a bit of rope to seperate them,I was very happy with her.Look at the stay and realise what emotion she is controlling compared with the last clip,(there is a dog tuggin about 6 feet to the left of her,she doesn't even look at it once.when I got her she would have run over and attacked that)she is doing that because of the amount of reinforcment she's had for ignoring running dogs and distractions,honestly she has never had a correction to achieve this.(oh and when I go back to her when she is in the wait,I stroke her in case you wondered what I was doing)

I don't believe I would have achieved the same result training the 'old way',and believe me I have been around ALOT of that,so have the practical knowledge to compare the 2.

http://youtu.be/YtIR_VY21xk

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Shearaha1
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby Shearaha1 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:06 pm

nic wrote:I have had massive success training my very high drive SBT with positive reinforcment,yes in her life she has been pulled back on a lead,I'm not gonna say she hasn't,but not in relation to my training her to behave nicely round other dogs.
When I got her at 12 weeks,she saw running dogs as prey,if the other dog was wound up and/or running fast,she wanted to chase and attack them.
She also tried to fight with other dogs she met whilst on the lead.All her reactiveness has been dealt with by reinforcing what I like,it didn't take a long time (in my mind) and she is trustworthy to be off lead around other dogs,and now competes in agility...give us some time and she will be I believe top of her game,and all trained positively.
I've trained dogs the 'old way',and the results simply aren't as reliable doing it that way,when all you're doing is teaching the dog to supress what it wants to do,you are not making the dog WANT not to do those behaviours.

This tiny clip shows Floozie's desire to get the job done,the screaming and barking is what she used to do when dogs ran around her,but she would really be and sound frenzied.This is the noise she makes any time she is restrained at the start of any agility work,she is desperate to do it.

http://youtu.be/9rELkG83oE8

Now look at the self control she has here,this is her first ever run at a show,there's 8 or 9 rings running back to back with only a bit of rope to seperate them,I was very happy with her.Look at the stay and realise what emotion she is controlling compared with the last clip,(there is a dog tuggin about 6 feet to the left of her,she doesn't even look at it once.when I got her she would have run over and attacked that)she is doing that because of the amount of reinforcment she's had for ignoring running dogs and distractions,honestly she has never had a correction to achieve this.(oh and when I go back to her when she is in the wait,I stroke her in case you wondered what I was doing)

I don't believe I would have achieved the same result training the 'old way',and believe me I have been around ALOT of that,so have the practical knowledge to compare the 2.

http://youtu.be/YtIR_VY21xk

:goodpost:

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MissKitty
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby MissKitty » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:01 pm

wayne wrote:I agree beth. I guess nothing is impossible. Highly unlikely is maybe better wording. PeopleI have trained with out scores the pure positive person people are mentioning at the wdc. I never trained with Shane or seen her or him train.


There is no such thing as 'pure positive'.

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Shearaha1
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby Shearaha1 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:13 pm

MissKitty wrote:There is no such thing as 'pure positive'.

I agree that there isn't a way to train any animal using only positive reinforcement. But there certainly is a way to train using positive reinforcement and negative punishment. I do my best to not use positive punishment with my dog and I think that what most positive reinforcement trainers go for. There still has to be consequences for bad behavior, but not smacking, jerking and popping the dog.

When Will's not behaving himself he looses out on the opportunity to do something he enjoys, or on spending time with us. For example if he sits quietly next to me or on the floor when the cats are in the room he gets to stay out and may even get something extra like a nice bone or extra belly rubs. But if he chases the cats he goes in his crate for 10-15 minutes before being allowed back out. By chasing the cats he looses my attention and the opportunity for good things to happen. By ignoring or being nice to the cats he gets more of my attention and sometimes yummy bonuses. I suppose I could grab his collar and yank him up, or smack him on the nose or something, but that won't teach him to like the cats, just not chase them when I'm around.

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Stormi
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby Stormi » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:40 pm

Shearaha1 wrote:I agree that there isn't a way to train any animal using only positive reinforcement. But there certainly is a way to train using positive reinforcement and negative punishment. I do my best to not use positive punishment with my dog and I think that what most positive reinforcement trainers go for.


True. And to add to this, in this instance, it's important to note that emotional behavior by definition is not operant. There can absolutely be operant components to the behavior, and there are dozens of training and management techniques that utilize operant learning, but in the process of desensitization and counterconditioning, you are working with associative learning. Changing that underlying emotional response the dog has to the given stimulus is classical, not operant. Hence why applying a soley operant fix, say positive punishment and compulsion, fails to address the root of the behavior and fails to have any effect on the conditioned emotional response. Suppressing behavior is not only psychologically damaging to the dog, but results in your classic ticking time bomb dog that gives no warning when he or she is over threshold.

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1lila1
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby 1lila1 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Bethb2007 wrote:Taking the dog down a notch or two sounds good to me. If a dog is truly super dog aggressive, I believe, compulsion must be used. Everytime the dog even looks at another dog, it gets a correction. You teach the dog to ignore other dogs, because it will Never get along with them, at this point. The best you can hope for is a dog that leaves other dogs alone or ignores them. A pinch collar or slip collar may have to be used, to get the dog to focus on the owner. The dog only gets a reward when looking at the owner. It may have to be a very serious, quick correction, and the owner may not be capable of this, many are not. IMO, Using a totally motivational training method, or de-sensitization, takes too long for the average pet owner, and they will usually ended up getting rid of the dog or putting them down before waiting for results.

Many are worried that the dog will load up or re-direct on the owner with compulsive training. This may happen, but if severe, the dog does not have good APBT temperament in my opinion, and should be culled anyway.

None of our dogs like other dogs, however, they all can work, train and compete around other dogs. When very young they get to socialize with other dog, but we stop that before there is any rough play or fighting. Then they are taught to work around other dogs, by teaching focus totally on the handler. Through training with motivation and yes, force, they are taught to ignore other dogs.


This is just wrong. All wrong! I have a 14 year old dog who went through compulsion training to stop her aggression towards other dogs. Not only did it not work it made her worse. It wasn't until I found this forum when she was around 6 or 7 and started training her using positive reinforcement was any difference made. Turns out her "aggression" towards other dogs was based entirely in anxiety. She didn't want to kill them no matter how vicious she acted. She just wanted them to go away. Her aggression was based in fear and anxiety, not wanting to kill another dog or fight them. She still doesn't like strange dogs but she is comfortable around them and isn't freaked out seeing a dog behind a fence or passing one on a leash. And I don't have to choke her, poke her, shock her, or worse to get her to look at me when another dog is around. Compulsion training didn't do this. Positive reinforcement did.

There are so many reasons for what appears to be aggressive behavior. I never thought my dog could be helped but once the harsh corrections stopped and the proper techniques were used it was like night and day. I have every reason to believe the dog in the OP can be helped as well with the right training. And going through screens isn't really that big of a deal, IMO. It's a flimsy little thing in the way of a dog doing what it wants to do. My dogs would happily go right through a screen if they had the chance. Which is why screen doors or windows with easy access and unsupervised dogs don't mix well together.

Bodegus, I really hope you try to talk your friends into getting the right help for their dog. It can make such a huge difference in the quality of life for their dog. No dog should have to go through life with the stress, anxiety, and turmoil that mainfests in such extreme acting out. Sure not every dog will love every strange dog but just passing a dog on the street doesn't have to stress them out so much that they act a fool. For the dog's sake please try to convince your friends to get help. The right help! Not old school debunked compulsive punishment based nonsense.

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1lila1
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby 1lila1 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:19 pm

Shearaha1 wrote:if he sits quietly next to me or on the floor when the cats are in the room he gets to stay out and may even get something extra like a nice bone or extra belly rubs. But if he chases the cats he goes in his crate for 10-15 minutes before being allowed back out. By chasing the cats he looses my attention and the opportunity for good things to happen. By ignoring or being nice to the cats he gets more of my attention and sometimes yummy bonuses. I suppose I could grab his collar and yank him up, or smack him on the nose or something, but that won't teach him to like the cats, just not chase them when I'm around.


I have two high strung high energy cats who are constantly running around with the zoomies. Angel, the dog in my avatar, has grown up around them and is generally good with them but he also has very high prey drive. I always wondered how he would handle coming across a stray cat until one day one showed up in my yard. Luckily we got the cat out of his jaws in time for it to jump the fence and take off (hopefully it lived....doubt it though :( ) but a few seconds more and the result would have been different. I've always been careful to train him not to chase the cats, and he's really good buddies with one of them, but after the stray cat incident it became even more important.

Sometimes if the cats are particularly worked up and zooming around the house Angel will lose himself and dash after them. I correct him with nothing more than a vocal correction and always praise him for coming back to me. It's enough to snap him out of it and get him to focus on me. Of course this has been going on since he was a puppy and for the most part he is excellent with them. But his prey drive and seeing a fuzzy thing dash across the room makes it imperative that 1) his focus on me is hardwired and 2) praise, love, treats, and attention are far far more important than any corrections dealing with the cats.

I want zero negative associations with the cats for him. The praise of his stopping his chase and coming back to me is so much more important and gets far better results than 10 minutes in time out would be. I've even seen him correct himself and stop a chase a split second before I got a vocal correction out. When that happens it's jackpot time with love, praise, tug game, and treats! Of course the safety of my cats is of utmost importance but I believe the way I'm handling that ensures it far more effectively than a physical correction or time out would.

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Shearaha1
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Re: How to deal with extreme dog aggression

Postby Shearaha1 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:41 pm

1lila1 wrote:
Shearaha1 wrote:if he sits quietly next to me or on the floor when the cats are in the room he gets to stay out and may even get something extra like a nice bone or extra belly rubs. But if he chases the cats he goes in his crate for 10-15 minutes before being allowed back out. By chasing the cats he looses my attention and the opportunity for good things to happen. By ignoring or being nice to the cats he gets more of my attention and sometimes yummy bonuses. I suppose I could grab his collar and yank him up, or smack him on the nose or something, but that won't teach him to like the cats, just not chase them when I'm around.


I have two high strung high energy cats who are constantly running around with the zoomies. Angel, the dog in my avatar, has grown up around them and is generally good with them but he also has very high prey drive. I always wondered how he would handle coming across a stray cat until one day one showed up in my yard. Luckily we got the cat out of his jaws in time for it to jump the fence and take off (hopefully it lived....doubt it though :( ) but a few seconds more and the result would have been different. I've always been careful to train him not to chase the cats, and he's really good buddies with one of them, but after the stray cat incident it became even more important.

Sometimes if the cats are particularly worked up and zooming around the house Angel will lose himself and dash after them. I correct him with nothing more than a vocal correction and always praise him for coming back to me. It's enough to snap him out of it and get him to focus on me. Of course this has been going on since he was a puppy and for the most part he is excellent with them. But his prey drive and seeing a fuzzy thing dash across the room makes it imperative that 1) his focus on me is hardwired and 2) praise, love, treats, and attention are far far more important than any corrections dealing with the cats.

I want zero negative associations with the cats for him. The praise of his stopping his chase and coming back to me is so much more important and gets far better results than 10 minutes in time out would be. I've even seen him correct himself and stop a chase a split second before I got a vocal correction out. When that happens it's jackpot time with love, praise, tug game, and treats! Of course the safety of my cats is of utmost importance but I believe the way I'm handling that ensures it far more effectively than a physical correction or time out would.

I was being brief in that post. I start with calling him off, just a recall, he gets lots of praise and treats every time he calls off. It helps that our cats have a space he can't get to as well. He only goes in the crate when he continues to hassle the cats after being called off. He's got 4 other cats that belong to my Mother in law that he only sees maybe once a month unless they dare venture into my cats turf with Will as well. He calls off of them nicely, except for Bella and that's all her fault. She will egg him on from just out of his range.


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