help with pulling dog

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Sun May 20, 2012 11:20 am

MarMar wrote:No one is saying it doesn't "work". In my post I pointed out that it can and does work. The point is, that if you have two options to train a behaviour, and one is non-aversive and the other IS aversive, the humane thing to do is use the non-aversive option. If a trainer can only use aversives, then they need to examine their skill set. And Stormi is quite right. If behaviour study is your goal, I would find new mentors.


Why? Because we have used it on dogs that needed it and been very successful? Sorry, I just don't find it inhumane at all, not if used the right way. You must have experienced someone using it the wrong way. And when I say the wrong way, I mean yanking too hard in the wrong place of the neck on a dog that should not be using it due to temperament. The right way is using it on a dog that DOES need and will do well with the correction after assessing their temperament to see if correction is a good fit for them as a method and them using the prong as a light corrective tool and nothing else.

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starrlamia
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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Sun May 20, 2012 11:46 am

You are getting really defensive for no reason. Stormi is incredibly knowledgable and experienced, how do you expect to learn anything if you dont accept the fact that maybe some things you know are wrong or other people know a better way?

Can some dogs respond well to a prong? Probably, however what everyone are trying to point out is that there is a better way to approach the issues that using a prong would be addressing, ways that strengthen the bond between owner/dog and do not have the ability to create negative consequences to the dog or owner/dog relationship.

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Red
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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Red » Sun May 20, 2012 12:00 pm

It does not take any qualification, common sense, empathy for animals, knowledge of the principle of learning and behavior and so forth for someone to put hands on dogs and call themselves a trainer or behaviorist, and it is a huge problem.

ChevellesMomma wrote:Why? Because we have used it on dogs that needed it and been very successful?


Which is the reasons why way too many continue to use physical punishment...it is reinforcing to the "trainer" or handler.It is reinforcing because it can work quickly, it gives power to the handler, and it is addictive.

Trisha45 wrote: I have a New Trix head collar for her and it works amazingly, but she hates it! She will stop and roll around on a patch of grass for minutes just trying to get it off, or just stop walking and lay down.


Thisha, is it possible for you to get a Halti head collar (the new paddded ones) and do you have a videocamera? It seems that there have been a negative associations in place and behavior have been practiced to get it off, so I would stop using the Trixi and start a desensitization protocol with her.Two weeks of no head collar on, hopefully you can get the Halti by then.It seems that she overpower you with her strenght and in that case I would recommend a head collar.It gives you physocal control without pinching, poking and jerking (never ever jerk on a head collar).If you'd like to start over with a Halti I'd be happy to help you, but I do need to see a video progress and we have to chat a bit, about what to do before the collar is even put on.

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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Sun May 20, 2012 12:48 pm

MarMar wrote:No one is saying it doesn't "work". In my post I pointed out that it can and does work. The point is, that if you have two options to train a behaviour, and one is non-aversive and the other IS aversive, the humane thing to do is use the non-aversive option. If a trainer can only use aversives, then they need to examine their skill set. And Stormi is quite right. If behaviour study is your goal, I would find new mentors.


Excellent post.

At a conference last year, I saw an amazing speaking (can't for the life of me remember who she is!) who showed us a video of an experiment she did with a human and a shock collar. The human received a shock everytime she didn't do what was expected. The "handler" used an arbitrary word, "frog" and when the human didn't obey the command, she was shocked. The "handler" understood that "frog" meant "sit in the chair" but obviously the human had no idea. She then repeated the same experiment using positive methods. She gave a new command, and waited. Everytime the human moved towards the intended behavior, she got a reward. The result was that the human figured out what was expected of her MUCH faster.

At the end of her presentation, the speaker said "once you have seen, you can't in-see". And it's true. I could never again use, recommend or condone aversive training methods.

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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Sun May 20, 2012 12:48 pm

That's supposed to be "un-see". Stupid auto correct.

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Sun May 20, 2012 1:02 pm

See, and this is what drives me nuts about dog forums. I never said that your way of training was WRONG, but it was clearly stated that mine was....hmm. It always seems to be like that on dog forums, no matter what the POV, it's always "my way is right and yours is wrong blah blah blah". There is more than one way to train a dog and no two trainers will ever agree on everything. You can not make blanket statements like "all dogs respond well to blank" or "all dogs don't respond well to blank" because they are all living things and they are all different. While you may not have been successful with or believe in the proper use of a prong collar, to say that I am absolutely wrong to believe that they CAN work well is dog training bigotry. I have used them and seen improvements in the dog him/herself, i am not praising them simply because it worked "for me" or was "addicting", but because the few dogs I have used it on were much happier with training when they finally realized what it was they were NOT supposed to be doing. It's worked on countless dogs for my mentor who I have spoken to about prong collars (and he has 30+ years of experience and a degree...so...) specifically. Sure, it's fine if you don't like them and would rather try a different route.

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Sun May 20, 2012 1:04 pm

starrlamia wrote:You are getting really defensive for no reason. Stormi is incredibly knowledgable and experienced, how do you expect to learn anything if you dont accept the fact that maybe some things you know are wrong or other people know a better way?

Can some dogs respond well to a prong? Probably, however what everyone are trying to point out is that there is a better way to approach the issues that using a prong would be addressing, ways that strengthen the bond between owner/dog and do not have the ability to create negative consequences to the dog or owner/dog relationship.


I've never had these negative consequences happen, EVER, when a prong is used properly on a dog with the correct temperament. Like I said, the dog that I own was much happier and is still much happier now that he understands better what it is I did/did not want him to do.

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Amie
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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Sun May 20, 2012 1:15 pm

I think it's really arrogant to claim you know what does or doesn't hurt another individual.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Sun May 20, 2012 6:54 pm

Amie, I really respect you and all the work you do with your dogs, so it saddens me that you find what I said arrogant. I try very hard not to be arrogant or accusatory when talking to people about training methods I don't agree with. This is because I am most assuredly a "cross-over" trainer, and used to use aversive tools and thought exactly the way that Chevelle'sMomma does. I remember people being very rude and accusatory towards me (not here but other place), and while they were certainly right about the methods I used, it made me feel pretty terrible as a person and pretty defensive (after all, I loved my dogs too). I know that not every person will cross over, but I do hope that some people may listen to or read things that make them think twice about the methods they choose to use with their dogs.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby randomroads » Tue May 22, 2012 2:44 pm

AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:
MarMar wrote:No one is saying it doesn't "work". In my post I pointed out that it can and does work. The point is, that if you have two options to train a behaviour, and one is non-aversive and the other IS aversive, the humane thing to do is use the non-aversive option. If a trainer can only use aversives, then they need to examine their skill set. And Stormi is quite right. If behaviour study is your goal, I would find new mentors.


Excellent post.

At a conference last year, I saw an amazing speaking (can't for the life of me remember who she is!) who showed us a video of an experiment she did with a human and a shock collar. The human received a shock everytime she didn't do what was expected. The "handler" used an arbitrary word, "frog" and when the human didn't obey the command, she was shocked. The "handler" understood that "frog" meant "sit in the chair" but obviously the human had no idea. She then repeated the same experiment using positive methods. She gave a new command, and waited. Everytime the human moved towards the intended behavior, she got a reward. The result was that the human figured out what was expected of her MUCH faster.

At the end of her presentation, the speaker said "once you have seen, you can't in-see". And it's true. I could never again use, recommend or condone aversive training methods.



While I enjoyed reading your post, and agree with the lecture you saw, I'm really not sure what this has to do with the topic or the comments about prong collars. If anything, your post points out that we should take the time to teach a dog the proper behavior before introducing corrections.

Teaching a loose leash walk is so easy a caveman could do it. No one needs fancy equipment. You don't even need a leash and collar, except that most places have leash laws.

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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue May 22, 2012 3:04 pm

My post was more about the positive reinforcement versus positive punishment tangent we went off on to. lol glad you appreciated my blathering.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby jamielvsaustin » Tue May 22, 2012 3:56 pm

MarMar wrote:Amie, I really respect you and all the work you do with your dogs, so it saddens me that you find what I said arrogant.


I was under the impression her comment was for ChevellesMomma...who I believe in the past also claimed that when a dog's ears are clipped/cropped it doesn't hurt.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Tue May 22, 2012 6:07 pm

Thanks everyone for all of your help. I didn't think there was such debate about prong collars though. It was going to be my last resort, but now I feel kinda bad that I even brought it up. I would like to record what she does and post it on here. Although, that will prove to be difficult, I will try my best.
I really like the NewTrix because it does work so well, but I don't want to have to rely on it just to walk her. It's not because she overpowers me, it's because she pulls so much and chokes herself and gets a bit out of control when other dogs/animals/kids/etc. walk by or she passes them.
As for Haltis and Gentle Leaders, not the biggest fan. Mostly because of the way they jerk the dogs neck when the try and pull really hard, where as the NewTrix applies a gentle pressure to the back of the neck. I never use it to correct Brandy. Harnesses I find just encourage a dog to pull and make them even harder to control.
She's 6.5 yrs old and I adopted her at 5.5. I don't understand what could be causing anxiety. She loves being outside and going for walks and doing dog things. Could it be because for almost 2 yrs of her life she wasn't walked until I adopted her? I mean she was a bit crazy when I first had her, but she's pretty calm now.
I do know a bit about behaviour and behaviour modification, but am by no means an expert. I only use positive reinforcement and never use physical corrections. It's not something I believe in.
My apartment is fairly small, so Brandy and I get in each others way most of the time and the only time she really focuses on me inside is when I have food. She doesn't care about food when she is outside.
Should I bring her to an obedience class? I live in Sudbury, Ont. and was thinking about using the Kennel Club we have here. I have heard good things about it. Would that be a good idea or too stressful for her?

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby 1lila1 » Tue May 22, 2012 6:20 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:See, and this is what drives me nuts about dog forums. I never said that your way of training was WRONG, but it was clearly stated that mine was....hmm. It always seems to be like that on dog forums, no matter what the POV, it's always "my way is right and yours is wrong blah blah blah". There is more than one way to train a dog and no two trainers will ever agree on everything.


That's because your way is based on debunked methods and old notions that that have nothing to do with how dogs actually learn. You want your dog to learn, right? Not just guess at which behavior is going to avoid him being clawed in the neck with a prong collar?

Sure, different approaches may be needed for different dogs but they should always be grounded in the best science available and always with the philosophy of first and foremost not doing any harm to the dog. Training your dog based on principles of operant and classical conditioning isn't opinion. It's fact that that is how dogs learn. Once YOU'VE learned the principles then you can decide whether a reinforcement for good behavior vs. a punishment for bad behavior is the best approach.

As someone who has done both approaches with one of my dogs, my older one being one who I thought was too tough of a case to use reward based positive reinforcement with, I will say that if you do become a trainer and decide to go the punishment route you would never have me as a client. My "tough case", the kind trainers like you aspire to be deemed too far gone for anything but the "serious" stuff, has blossomed under a gentle reinforcement training program. Not gentle as in I let her get away with stuff but gentle as in not punishing her for having anxiety and being stressed out and then reacting. Turns out just not putting her in those kinds of situations while slowly working her up to where situations that used to send her into a tizzy now just cause her to turn away and look at me like she's been conditioned to do. All through positive reinforcement and without the use of a shock, prong, or any other "tool".

I think it's great you're interested in dog training and behavior. And it always sucks to feel like you're being ganged up on and told you're wrong. But in this case you really are. I was wrong at one time too. And my dog payed the price for it. The difference is that I was greatful to be shown an alternative to the abusive methods my poor dog had been subjected to in the past. I embraced a new way that totally made sense to me and was actually based on science. Please take advantage of it and embrace it, don't fight it. Who knows where my dog would be today if I hadn't taken the advice from people on this forum, esp Red, and educated myself. My dog is 14 now and she is spending her golden years so much happier, calmer, and our relationship is amazing. Really, I know it sucks to be told you're wrong but please just at least consider that in this case you really just might be.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Tue May 22, 2012 7:02 pm

jamielvsaustin wrote:
MarMar wrote:Amie, I really respect you and all the work you do with your dogs, so it saddens me that you find what I said arrogant.


Thanks, Jamie. Yes, my comment was directed at someone else, specifically those who say things like "I tried it on myself and it didn't hurt that much". We all experience pain/discomfort differently and I find it arrogant to say that because something doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother anyone else. Some people don't feel pain when a pet dies, most of us here would find that devastating. I cry over sad movies but deal with the death of animals I love and care for every day without tears - does that mean sad movies hurt me more? (no)

I'm very sorry that my comment was interpreted in a way that made you feel bad, MarMar - that was truly not my intent to make anyone feel bad. I only hoped to point out to people that no sensation - joy, pain, sorrow or anything else - is a one-size-fits-all situation, and it's especially important to remember that when we're the ones causing those feelings. I'm sorry that I caused some bad ones in you!


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