help with pulling dog

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gerry
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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:42 pm

MarMar said:
I have never seen nor heard of a dog that "responded better to physical correction".


Watch a mother training puppies, or older puppies being socialized by several adult dogs. It's all a matter of degree, and the type and intensity of a stimulus required to evoke an attentive response and apply a correction. I have seen a prong collar used well, though I rarely use one.

ChevellesMomma wrote:
if used correctly, the prong is supposed to mimic the none painful correction given to a puppy by its mother.

Stormi wrote:
Except that it doesn't. At all.


For someone who was claiming a while back that you wanted to go to school to become an applied behaviorist, perhaps some research on the basics of operant and classical conditioning and the fallout of positive punishment would do you well...


Except that punishment does play a roll in conditioning, although it is rarely applied by itself. It can influence motivation and value judgements. Nothing in operant or classical conditioning precludes it, it just doesn't use it in the pure form. Overall, I would apply the LIMA principle (Least instrusive, mimimally aversive).

This whole issue on aversives tends to be taken as black-and-white by too many people. Some aversives may be needed to prompt an attentive response and apply a negation to the behavior, while a replacement behavior is applied using positive reinforcement. Again, LIMA applies. There are no single, sweeping answers here. Further, when giving advice to people, I usually visit them and watch them using that advice. Some people are better at applying some approaches than others, and the "best" approach may not be useful at all if they simply cannot follow it closely enough.

At a local shelter a volunteer was struggling while walking a dog. I switched dogs with her and, a few minutes later, this dog was walking calmly. I explained what I was doing then returned the dog to her. A couple of minutes later, the dog was strongly pulling again. I have seen this one many times.

1lila1 wrote:
Unfortunately for you there is actually a right way and a wrong way. Positive punishment, intimidation, and coercion are scientifically proven to be ineffectual at best and abusive at worst.


Again, that sounds very black-and-white. By themselves, I would agree with you. However, in small doses, they each have their part. I recently used intimidation by holding a squirt bottle in front of a dog to prevent him from biting me, which provoked enough of an attentive response that I was able to introduce a conflicting alternative behavior along with positive reinforcement of that behavior. Within a week, the squirt bottle was rarely needed. The squirt bottle was not to change his behavior or punish him, but only to produce an attentive response.

MarMar wrote:
This person is right in that "purely positive" is not really a "thing". It is impossible to train, or in fact deal with a dog (or any other animal) and use ONLY positive reinforcement.


MarMar, thank you for stating that! So many people seem to miss that point.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:00 pm

There's a lot of discussion here on prong collars and such, but I feel they are rarely needed. The most I typically use on dogs who lunge while walking is a simple harness. I've tried gentle leaders, but they only seem to work when I can gradually get the dog to walk calmly without any leash corrections, or the walking behavior gets associated only with the gentle leader.

On dog pulling, I took a look at the two videos from Celesteandthebullies, and I feel they are excellent. Remember, however, that some things will work better with some dogs than others, so focus on what does work. If a dog continues to pull, stopping or reversing direction may help, or it may do nothing to help. There is also, of course, the issue of training the person, so some methods may not work with you. While clicker training can be effective, it sometimes is not. One common case is where the dog is not food motivated. You need to search for what works.

For a dog who gets excited, one important point they bring out in the video is to first teach the desired behavior apart from any distractions. But, this may need to go further. Pick an easy to create and control distraction that she is mildly responsive to. It could be another person walking by, or a thrown toy. But, it must be something you can easily control. Now the hard part...with clicker training or whatever, you must establish firm control. Since you are now controlling the single distraction, you can focus on high repetition, which may be impossible when walking down a busy street. Whatever approach you use, the controlled repetition is the key to rapid learning. And that requires people patience.

You then increase the intensity and vary the type of distraction.

However, it sounds like your problem goes a bit further. How does your dog meet people? What about other dogs? Don't try and resolve this issues during a normal walk, when they may happen only a few times. Teach her the desired behavior in isolation and with high repetition. Yes, this is a lot of work, but likely much faster than simply training on normal walks.

Notice here, that I'm saying little about positive reinforcement, prong collars or what approach you use. This all applies for all of them.

The barking and high pitch scream and the aggression towards other dogs are difficult issues to speak about. There are several possible reasons and, without working with the dog, I cannot determine the cause or intensity. Nor do I know her behavior in other situations. If they are really that strong, then I'd suggest you look for professional assistance rather than just advice in a blog. This could range from a medical issue, to where you may be actually prompting the behavior without knowing it.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:06 pm

Stormi wrote:Ok, so it sounds like you've got a few things you want to work on:

1. Loose leash walking
2. Reactivity/over-arousal near other dogs and children
3. Recall
4. Impulse control amidst distractions

What techniques have you tried for each and for how long? How specifically are you reinforcing behavior that you want?



I walk her all the time. I have nowhere to bring her for a loose leash walk without distractions. When she sees another dog I have her sit and I pet her and tell she's a good girl, but that doesn't always work for her and she is not food motivated outside at all. Sometimes a certain toy works, but not always. I've been working on her recall for over a year(since I have had her) and it has gotten better, but still not at all where I want it to be. But that's when she is outside, she listens well inside. I'm not sure what you mean by impulse control.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:44 am

Trisha45, I feel that Stormi's items and questions are really the center of the issue here. Impulse control relates to the dogs abrupt reaction to a distraction while engaged in another activity. Such as from calmly walking or sitting, to suddenly taking off after another dog, with little or no hesitation, and ignoring your commands.

As you said that she listens well when inside, that would indicate this is your main issue. However, here's where a blog fails us. We don't know exactly how well she listens to what commands while inside, or if you've used distractions then. For a simple example, my dog loves to run after treats. However, when sitting and waiting for a treat, he will now ignore my throwing other treats or toys until he is given a release. He loves fetch, but I can now bounce a ball in front of him or throw it, and he will remain seated. That took time to establish, and is part of impulse control training. We started in the house, then the back yard, then on walks and in stores.

So, while Stormi's last question is very important, it's also a very difficult one for you to answer on a blog. I've seen people calmly train a dog inside, then the same people quickly get excited and upset when the dog fails to respond outside, their own behavior reduces their control over the dog, and they never realize this, so they can't describe it well on a blog.

As for using treats, many books and people seem to ignore the dog's relative valuations. As you said for your dog, the distractions outside she sees as a greater value than the treats. Part of effective training is determining your dog's values, and making use of them. While treats are the easiest item to control and use, sometimes others are more effective. Using positive reinforcement requires you to first learn these values or you have nothing "positive enough" to offer for reinforcement.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:35 pm

She responds well to commands inside. All the basics and some others. Sometimes I give her treats, other times I don't as I feel that are not always needed when I want her to do something. I usually pet her and tell her she is a good girl.
I should have mentioned this the first time, but this behaviour only seems to come out when she is on leash. She's not perfect 100% of the time off leash, but for the most part she's really good for sticking close to me. Unless or course there is another dog or she hears a squirrel. If I notice that she has her eye on something or her body posture changes I tell her 'no' and when she comes back to me I praise her.
I don't want to say she's not dog aggressive because there are dogs that she just simply does not like. She gets along with most of them, but seems to feel the need to be in charge before she plays with them.
When she becomes over excited I talk calmly to her as I know getting frustrated over it can just make the situation worse.
So if Brandy values the distractions outside as her reward for her behaviour how would I go about turning it into a postive situation? If another dog is the distraction and I allow her to greet it, aren't I just reinforcing the behaviour I don't want?
I have looked in my area for dog trainers, but have not found one that I would feel comfortable training Brandy or I feel that they just don't know enough about behaviour modification to help me.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 pm

Trisha45, that's now sounding a lot better. You seem to indicate that she is pretty good with you outside and off leash. That you can then verbally control her when seeing another dog says that you've actually gone pretty far in controlling her. The calm behavior you use when she's excited will only help with this. Does her behavior change if you then put the leash on? Or is it the different activity you do when you have her on a leash? Where does that high pitch scream come into it?

I also agree with your comment on giving her treats only sometimes.

I don't want to say she's not dog aggressive because there are dogs that she just simply does not like. She gets along with most of them, but seems to feel the need to be in charge before she plays with them.

Well, I run play groups at a large municipal shelter, and there are few dogs that like all others. As for her being in charge, I'd probably have to see her exact body language to comment. While training volunteers to run play groups, it takes awhile for them to lose their purely human interpretations of some things that dogs do. If she gets along well with most of them, you just need to have enough control to handle the other cases.

So if Brandy values the distractions outside as her reward for her behaviour how would I go about turning it into a postive situation? If another dog is the distraction and I allow her to greet it, aren't I just reinforcing the behaviour I don't want?

Near the start of this thread are some good videos on leash walking. In one you'll see a dog pulling towards a bush she wants to sniff. Only after she stops pulling is she allowed to approach it. The proper behavior and control applies in all cases so that if she does what you want, then she gets what she wants (mostly, of course). As long as you remain in control. Near the start of this thread are some good videos on leash walking., it doesn't matter what behavior you have her take on seeing another dog, such as simply sitting and waiting until you give her permission. With one very hyper dog who couldn't sit still, I had him sort of running in circles until I gave him the okay.

Overall, it's now sounding like you just need to set up more training situations to further extend the control that you've already established. Doing this, of course, will take both some imagination and trial-and-error. Sort of like trying to teach a dog not to run after a running cat, when the cat won't cooperate on when she runs. Look for a situation you can set up where you have some control and can do repetitions. Try to edge forward a small piece at a time, as I mentioned earlier with the bouncing ball. Keep changing and trying things. If you run out of ideas, you could still use a local dog trainer, having a focussed session on where you're having problems. Any good trainer should be able to give you several possible approaches that you may not have thought of, and one may just work. Of course, any trainer who insists on a single solution only is just wasting your time, so mention you want multiple approaches when you first speak with them. A really good person will take what you've accomplished and just try to build on and improve your approach if possible, instead of changing it if that's not really needed.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:09 pm

All of your info is really helpful. Thanks for taking the time to help me. I really appreciate it.
I find her behaviour changes when the leash is on. If she is off leash and sees a dog and greets it, she's pretty friendly about it. On leash it seems to me that she has this need to protect herself. I'm just taking her for a walk when she has her leash on. I don't have a backyard for her to run in and I was bringing her to a ballfield so she could run off leash(supervised of course), until a dog went after her. I no longer bring her there. The high pitch scream comes in when she sees a dog and I don't allow her to greet it. I guess that's her way of letting me know she's frustrated. A lot of people don't want to let their dogs greet her because of this and also because of the way she looks. I don't think her size plays into it at all, just the fact that she is a solid dog with a big square head, and I know that really intimidates people. I suppose having someone who is 6ft tall walking her doesn't help that either.
As with other dogs, she does this really deep growling and gets right in their faces. I know most dogs don't appreciate that, so maybe that's the reason why she doesn't get along with everyone. When that happens I usually take her away and give her a break and then let her go back to playing and she how she does. She's can be quite aggressive when she is playing (not in a bad way) just loud really and jumping and barking. She usually only plays with two other dogs ( Scottish Deerhound and a Mastiff X) so they are of course quite a bit larger than she is. I have never had a problem with her with these two boys. Perhaps having too many dogs around is too much for her though. She will go after another dog if it jumps on me. It has only happened a few times and I intervened before it got out of control.
So I should let her greet the dog only after she has calmed down then? I can do that. What if the other owner doesn't want the dogs to meet? Praise Brandy for being a good girl? She did have a toy that she really liked and would carry with her, I can get her another one and that could be her reward.
I was going to take her to a training class, but I don't know how she would be in a small area with a group of other dogs around her.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:18 pm

MarMar said:
I have never seen nor heard of a dog that "responded better to physical correction".


Watch a mother training puppies, or older puppies being socialized by several adult dogs. It's all a matter of degree, and the type and intensity of a stimulus required to evoke an attentive response and apply a correction. I have seen a prong collar used well, though I rarely use one.


I am not denying that dogs DO respond to physical corrections. Of course they do. But we are not dogs, and we cannot replicate exactly how they communicate with each other. Far better for us to use our big brains and opposable thumbs and train in the most humane way we can. We don't NEED prongs to teach loose leash walking, why should we use them?

Except that punishment does play a roll in conditioning, although it is rarely applied by itself. It can influence motivation and value judgements. Nothing in operant or classical conditioning precludes it, it just doesn't use it in the pure form. Overall, I would apply the LIMA principle (Least instrusive, mimimally aversive).


Of course punishment plays a role in conditioning. Least intrusive, minimally aversive training, I assume, would attempt to avoid positive punishment and negative reinforcement and make use of positive reinforcement and negative punishment. I'm not sure what you mean by the "pure form".

This whole issue on aversives tends to be taken as black-and-white by too many people. Some aversives may be needed to prompt an attentive response and apply a negation to the behavior, while a replacement behavior is applied using positive reinforcement. Again, LIMA applies. There are no single, sweeping answers here. Further, when giving advice to people, I usually visit them and watch them using that advice. Some people are better at applying some approaches than others, and the "best" approach may not be useful at all if they simply cannot follow it closely enough


I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. What is an "attentive" response? I guess my stance on aversives IS pretty black and white: I don't want to use them. I can't understand why people are so resistant to this. What is so extreme about not wanting to cause distress to my dog if I don't have to? I'm not perfect. I do occasionally use aversives, usually by accident. But I strive not to. There is no need to use an aversive before teaching a behavior with positive reinforcement.

Again, that sounds very black-and-white. By themselves, I would agree with you. However, in small doses, they each have their part. I recently used intimidation by holding a squirt bottle in front of a dog to prevent him from biting me, which provoked enough of an attentive response that I was able to introduce a conflicting alternative behavior along with positive reinforcement of that behavior. Within a week, the squirt bottle was rarely needed. The squirt bottle was not to change his behavior or punish him, but only to produce an attentive response.


Again, I'm confused. How did holding a squirt bottle prevent a dog from biting you? And if it was for intimidation, how did it not change his behavior or punish him?

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:14 am

MarMar said: I am not denying that dogs DO respond to physical corrections. Of course they do. But we are not dogs, and we cannot replicate exactly how they communicate with each other. Far better for us to use our big brains and opposable thumbs and train in the most humane way we can. We don't NEED prongs to teach loose leash walking, why should we use them?

There is no exact communication involved. If you watch many dogs newly meeting others, there is often some adjustment as to the meaning and intensity of the signals they give each other. I do not use prongs to teach and our difference may be only of degree. I believe that humans can learn to effectively communicate with dogs. Last year I stopped at a shelter that was using (rarely used) catch poles to control two dogs and dragging them because nothing else seemed to work. A few weeks later I had them both walking on a leash, never using catch poles, prongs, or anything else like that. Actually, I never used any aversives in that case, but much more than just positive reinforcement was needed. On another vein, I'd like to see you try to run some large dog play groups without any physical corrections. Of course, the physical corrections you use there are typically far less than what the dogs use between themselves. I feel you are taking a purely human view of physical corrections, where I'm looking at canine ethology.

MarMar said: Of course punishment plays a role in conditioning. Least intrusive, minimally aversive training, I assume, would attempt to avoid positive punishment and negative reinforcement and make use of positive reinforcement and negative punishment. I'm not sure what you mean by the "pure form".

The "pure form" of conditioning simply does not mention aversives. For LIMA, see Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Vol. 2: Etiology and Assessment of Behavior Problems, Steven Lindsay, pp 725, and the definition of Cynopraxic Training. LIMA addresses both positive and negative punishment. A search on google books for "cynopraxic lima" targets the defining text. If you find that, you may also be interested in the Dead-dog Rule.

MarMar said: I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. What is an "attentive" response? I guess my stance on aversives IS pretty black and white: I don't want to use them. I can't understand why people are so resistant to this. What is so extreme about not wanting to cause distress to my dog if I don't have to? I'm not perfect. I do occasionally use aversives, usually by accident. But I strive not to. There is no need to use an aversive before teaching a behavior with positive reinforcement.

Sorry, an "attentive response" comes from the language of behavioral psychology that most dog training is based upon. It is the important first step in any and every training method, although most people don't recognize it as such. No, of course I do not use aversives if I don't need to do so, and even then keep the intensity as low as possible. But I've never met or even heard of anybody who can fully train a dog purely with positive reinforcement, though some have made that claim. I never said one should always use an aversive first, but see my next response.

Again, I'm confused. How did holding a squirt bottle prevent a dog from biting you? And if it was for intimidation, how did it not change his behavior or punish him?

Initially, the dog was purely reactive and impulse driven. Positive reinforcement would be nonsense, since you could never relate the reinforcement to the desired action, and would need a good supply of band-aids. The rescuer was simply trying to give him a treat, and she was bitten. She went to move his food bowl, and was almost bitten. Same with toys. The aversive of a water squirt to the face was enough for the dog to stop what he was doing, back up and wait to decide on an action. It did not change his behavior as he didn't know what to do and it gave him no indication. After the first few squirts, just showing him the squirt bottle was enough, so when the aversive was continued it was at the lowest effective intensity (why squirt if you don't need to do so?). When the dog went to lunge for something, the bottle was used to make him pause, where he was then watching me very intently. That is an "attentive response". From that point, simple positive reinforcement and desensitization was used to stop the resource guarding and had the dog safe to handle in just a few days. As for your comment on my punishing him, that's just your human interpretation. The use here is properly called an "interruption".

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:28 pm

Trish45, it's the important details that are often hard to see on a blog, and they may make all the difference. You have a marked behavior difference on/off leash, and she will go after another dog who jumps on you. It's very possible the two are strongly connected and that some aspect of your behavior is reinforcing that. This is where another person familiar with dog behavior may well see something you are missing. If you've ever watched the Dog Whisperer, this issue is a common one there, and often plays a part in many dog issues. The high pitched scream simply adds to the same issue. It's part of her anxiety level and how she behaves when tied to you under leash control.

On her socialization it sounds like she is only good with high-energy dogs and has never learned proper skills for others. On deep growling the issue is unclear. Some dogs simply vocalize a lot while playing, which comes out as very deep growls, and I'd need to see her posture and actions to know if it's an issue or not. Barking often, however, is far less common and often indicates a real issue. Some dogs like that will become uncomfortable and even aggressive with other dogs as they lack confidence and are unsure what behavior they should assume. How does she do with quiet dogs? Or much younger dogs? Does their size also seem to be an issue? You also said that off leash she's pretty friendly on greeting a dog, and that's different from that high-energy in-your-face description you also gave.

On another dog greeting you, have you tried it with one of her play friends coming to you? Since you didn't say, I assume that protective behavior happens if she is on- or off-leash. How is she with other people? What happens if one of them is holding her leash, both when you are present and when she cannot see you? Can another person who she knows exercise any control over her?

We're at the point where many of your answers will just prompt more questions. You need to start trying different things. Give the training class a shot. She may go wild, or simply sense the difference in that environment and behave. Try some exercises where you're putting the leash on/off every few minutes, while prompting the same behavior in both cases. Get a friend (who will have different body language) to try some things with her. See if her behavior suddenly changes when she catches sight of you.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:16 pm

gerry wrote:As for your comment on my punishing him, that's just your human interpretation. The use here is properly called an "interruption".


You are choosing to call it an interuption, but let's be specific here. It helps no one to play the Abe Lincoln game of calling a tail a leg. If you're going to come on and present yourself as an expert, you'll understand that semantics count, even without any judgement as to whether or not I agree with your specific methods.

The definition of punishment is something that reduces the likelihood that a behavior will occur again. Therefore, your use of a squirt bottle is, in fact, initially punishment, specifically positive punishment, because you're applying it to the situation to stop the dog's behavior. Once the dog recognizes the squirt bottle, you use it as negative reinforcement, by removing the threat of the squirt when the dog offers you the attention you want to increase.

It doesn't matter what you want to call it. It IS what it is, by the very definition of it.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:28 pm

Amie said: The definition of punishment is something that reduces the likelihood that a behavior will occur again. Therefore, your use of a squirt bottle is, in fact, initially punishment, specifically positive punishment, because you're applying it to the situation to stop the dog's behavior. Once the dog recognizes the squirt bottle, you use it as negative reinforcement, by removing the threat of the squirt when the dog offers you the attention you want to increase.

Okay, here you are asserting in your argument that the squirt bottle reduced or stopped (changed) the behavior, as required by the definition of punishment in behavioral psychology. I never reported, observed or suggested that. I indicated that it did nothing but momentarily interrupt (see dictionary definition of interrupt) the undesired behavior. Specifically, its use did NOT indicate to the dog any alternative behavior and would not be persistent. Of course, you did try to define the dog's momentary attention as a behavior induced by negative reinforcement, but for that see my last paragraph below.

I previously said:
From that point, simple positive reinforcement and desensitization was used to stop the resource guarding and had the dog safe to handle in just a few days.

And THAT was where the alternative behavior and reward were introduced. By your omission and assertion you have a strawman argument here. As to my "calling a tail a leg", a few months ago I spoke with Aimee Sadler during one of her playgroup workshops. We spoke of the use of aversives, interruptions and corrections in the playgroups, and it seems that we both had the exact same terminology and definitions. Of course, this can vary. If I look at Lindsay's Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, he further breaks interrupters into diverters and disrupters, and that book set is a university-level classic on dog behavior.

I also said:
Initially, the dog was purely reactive and impulse driven. Positive reinforcement would be nonsense, since you could never relate the reinforcement to the desired action, and would need a good supply of band-aids.

Have you ever had success teaching anything to a dog (or person) when he was not paying attention to what you were saying or doing? In some cases, you can just hold up your hand (or a treat) to get their attention. In others you might give a calm command to be quiet and pay attention. In frustration you may yell at a child to stop breaking the furniture and pay attention. You know that none of these by themselves will change their behavior, but without getting their attention nothing else will, either. And if you then speak calmly with them and get their behavior to change, would you credit this change to the calm discussion, or to the yelling or hand waving at the beginning?

But, you are far from the first to be confused when pieces are mixed together in the real world. I've seen some people rather frustrated (and argumentative) in trying to classify some training as either operant or classical, without realizing some protocols are mixing them together, and that the combination is still valid. Or feeling that everything you do must be described as positive/negative reinforcement/punishment and some training protocols that focus on positive reinforcement may still contain minor components of some or all of the others, yet still be effective uses of positive reinforcement. Or, those who have read a single book or did a single web search and believe that what they've found is the final and authoritative word on the topic.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:48 am

Sweetie, you can be as condescending and drop as many (thoroughly unimpressive to me) names as you'd like. But you don't get to redefine things and then claim others are wrong.

Operant Conditioning does not "indicate any alternative behavior," it teaches consequences of behavior the learner introduces on their own. Consequences drive behavior, not suggestions of what else to do.

I'm not clear how you're defining "interrupt" but since dictionaries define it as stopping in the midst of something else, ceasing in action, ending continuity, and other definitions that mean STOP, to interrupt a behavior is to stop it.

As I said, I wasn't stating judgements on what methods you've chosen, nor was I claiming you should have used only positive reinforcement (as has been stated, that's not possible - ALL FOUR quadrants work together). I was merely insisting that terminology be used correctly, as they stand by definitions far older than either of us. Even Aimee Sadler doesn't get to change that.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby gerry » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:04 am

Amie, apparently, a momentary pause or a permanent change are the same "stop" to you. At that, I give up on that one.

You calmly declare the definitions are far older than either of us? While most things do have some earlier roots, the development and acceptance of much of the terminology of behavioral psychology was in the 1950's. That's not older than me, and certainly not "far" older.

Aimee Sadler was only given as an example of another knowledgeable person, one who is known by many others. The expert I noted there is Stephan Lindsay. If you'd care to challenge his terminology, by all means please go for it. His reference runs over 2000 pages, so you'll find plenty of nits to pick there. If you should run out, try the books and publications of one B. F. Skinner.

There is a difference between memorizing the definition of something, and understanding its applications and variations. Apparently, I cannot state this simply enough for you to grasp.

Ah, well. I tried. This thread was for help with a pulling dog, yet most of these posts are off-topic and becoming rather testy. So, I'm done with this. I'll leave the last word for you. Good bye.


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