diane or other pure positive training folks

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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BabyReba
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diane or other pure positive training folks

Postby BabyReba » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:29 pm

Since I got her at 8 weeks, I've been working with puppy Juice with the "pure positive" training method (at least as much as I understand of it), and until recently it's worked beautifully. But as she's just passing the 5 month mark, she's starting to get more willful and less attentive. She's becoming the dreaded doggie adolescent! So the pup who used to turn to me every time I called her to "look" or to "sit," even from a distance is now trying to swing from the chandeliers. I've been trying to keep my patience and not resort to the old methods of putting my hands on her, physically manipulating her into a down when she's out of control, etc. But damn, it is HARD!

My question, though, is this: How have you handled "corrections" when a pup is doing something unacceptable and you catch her in the act? For example, when she has managed to tear up the linoleum in the kitchen, and won't leave it alone no matter how many times you "redirect" her attention? Or when she just starts flying from the couch to leap onto the coffee table? Or has decided that tormenting the cat is far more rewarding than chewing, playing, walking, anything else? Yesterday was rainy so she was a big pain in the a**! I had enough of her, and Reba tried to bite her head off for being pushy, so I finally grabbed her and put her in a crate for a couple of hours and let her howl her head off, but then I thought that perhaps there is a better way to deal with puppy insolence . . .

Nick

My opinion...

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:23 pm

I feel your pain. Mine at about that age did the same thing to our kitchen floor and then some! I am by no means, solely a pure positive guy, but If you want to go that route, you gotta read Shelia Booths books. "Pure Positive and Shutzhund Obedience-Training in Drive". Read them over and over again. Then decide if it's for you and your dog.
If it's not your style, then you gotta go a different way. I followed Ed Frawley's method of a"Learning phase, a Correction phase and a Distraction phase". It worked really well for myself and my dog. It keeps things really Black and White.
Look at all the options and make a choice that fits your goals and needs, your dog's good behavior and his knowing that your a good and fair pack leader will be thanks to you. -Nick

http://www.leerburg.com/302.htm

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aliwishus
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Postby aliwishus » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:05 am

Hi BabyReba,

oooh, adolescence. Like a barrel of laughs, but not. :tongue:

You probably know this but the trick is to try to catch her just as she's thinking of doing x bad thing and redirect - ask her to come, etc.

Remember too that at this age the outside world is supposed to become interesting to them - they are supposed to go out on their own, become more independent. So she's not doing this to torture you! Remember to be consistent. Try also teaching her fun tricks - see which ones she likes to do and ask for those instead of a sit or down when she looks like she's about to get into trouble.

I don't think a time out in the crate is a bad thing when she's really being obnoxious. Positive training doesn't mean not setting boundaries. But also make sure she's well exercised. Tired pups aren't naughty pups.

Also, as dogs go through stages, they will often forget things you taught them. So teach her from the beginning if she forgets a command.

Finally, make sure your rewards are both good enough and exciting (do you vary how you reward her? Does she get rewarded with different things? Food, toys, happy wrestle fests?). If you are more interesting than the environment she will come to you.

Remember this time will end so be creative and patient and you both will get through just fine.

-ali

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BabyReba
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thanks

Postby BabyReba » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:36 pm

thanks for the advice ali and nick. nick, i'll definitely take a look at that book--my older dogs have both been trained using the "least resistance possible" methods. I would use some old-school hands-on stuff with them when necessary, but didn't interfere at all if they could catch onto things on their own.

as for Juice, she's getting exercise: we jog together in the mornings and play hard for an hour or more at a stretch in the evenings, once when I get home from work, and again a couple of hours later. but i do know that when it's rainy (she hates the rain) or cold (she's a big wuss about cold weather) and we don't go out to do stuff as often, she's a monster.

Hadn't thought about fun tricks she can learn to vary her repertoire of commands, though. she's a quick learner--i'll have to come up with some stuff and see how she does. i wish i had a huge backyard--i'd be training her to do weavepoles or something!

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turtle
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Postby turtle » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:36 pm

I have a trainer friend who knows her (Booth) and has witnessed some pretty shocking stuff. Her training info is a LIE. She talks a good line about this "purely positive" training BS but my friend has witnessed her on several occasions using a shock collar for training.

Here are some of her comments:

"I have borrowed a copy of Booth's "Positively bullshizzle" book and was APPALLED to see her write about training
"Lars" and Ron with 'positive reinforcement', when that was the very dog I saw her and Ron using a shock collar
on. It made me spitting mad.

AND the woman from whom I borrowed the book, was with me at the time. We both saw Sheila and Ron sneaking
around the back end of a dog show away from everyone training Lars with the electric collar. That she would spend
money on this book is equally appalling. She wants to treat train and it NEVER works for her.

You can't get that behavior on 'treat training'. Well, Sophie had been treat trained before at unbelievable expense
and her owner is there to testify that it didn't work. That they NEVER wean the dogs off the treats. They can't
because then the dogs won't listen...or certainly not reliably. "

This Sheila Booth is living a lie and making money off her book and false training ideas. Using a shock collar is NOT positive training nor is it good training!

If you are really wanting to learn more about "positive training" there are better books out there. I'd try the one on clicker training by Karen Pryor.

chewalotopus

Postby chewalotopus » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:55 pm

Baby Reba - as far as the teaching of fun tricks:

I tried for two weeks to get Aiko to give me her paw by saying "paw" and then grabbing her paw and giving her a human handshake. She never caught on, even slightly. Then a friend suggested that I try an alternate command (I did not want to use shake, since I want to teach her to shake off water) like "gimme five!". I tried it the next day, and on the fourth try she had it down!

Moral of the story - if one command doesn't work, try another, especially for tricks that are supposed to be fun!

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tech a dog to sit up?

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BabyReba
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paw

Postby BabyReba » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:34 pm

chew,

paw was one of the first things Juice got down pat! she was always trying to paw my hand to get the clicker or the treat anyway, so i incorporated it into her everyday "sit, down, stay" drills. it's so funny because she's so eager to get something from me that she'll follow me around the kitchen sitting and pawing at the air or at me. funny pup.

reba on the other hand knows the difference between "gimme foot," "high five" and "wave." she's a show off, heh heh.

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aliwishus
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Postby aliwishus » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:33 pm

Hi BabyReba,

I just thought of a few things you could do inside to exercise her.

Teach "spin" (that's probably easiest to do with target training, ask if you are not familiar with it)

Do puppy push ups (sit, down, sit, stand, sit up, spin, down) See if you can get rapid response.

Play hide and seek in the house. If she knows stay you can put her in a stay and go hide then call her to you. Start at first by hiding in the next room (easy style), then progress to further away and harder to find. When she finds you have a party, jump up and down, play tug, whatever. You can also do that with other people. You put her in a stay, have another person hide, then you say "find Bob" and have Bob call her.


Don't know if you know these sites but Karen Pryor's site is:

www.clickertraining.com

She's got some tricks on there.

The other site I like is ClickerSolutions:

www.clickersolutions.com

You know, you could probably teach her a few agility things in the house. I bet you could make some of the equipment with household items (short jumps, tunnels, mini-weave poles). The ceiling's the limit!

-ali

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BabyReba
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her new trick

Postby BabyReba » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:22 pm

ali, i was thinking about what you said about teaching new tricks, and today i found the handle to an old broom and decided to see if Juice would jump over it. after about 15 minutes, i would tell her "over" and she'd hop the broom--she even seemed to enjoy it! next we're gonna try "under" and see if she can learn to limbo!

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aliwishus
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Postby aliwishus » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:48 pm

called “MediQuest Therapeuticals


Cool! :thumbsup:

I probably don't have to tell you this, but do only very small jumps and not too much jump repetition with dogs under 1 year (their joints are still growing). In fact, that's true for a lot of animals; they don't jump horses until age 2 I think.

Keep up the good (and fun!) work!

-ali


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