SATS Bridges and Targets: Overview and Applications

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Kayce Cover
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yes, we teach bridges without food...

Postby Kayce Cover » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:09 am

But it takes better timing and perhaps more finesse. I use touch - a lot.

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Red
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Postby Red » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:56 am

..food such as in Clicker Training, or information as in SATS.


I am not sure why people refer to clicker training as some kind of food dispensing method that is not flexible in what a reinforcer is.Being a primary reinforcer food is effectively used simply because most dogs seek it and find it especially reinforcing.Other things, items, touches, and activities can become conditioned reinforcers.They can be exchanged.A pay back has to be given, to keep a behavior reliable or while appreciating the efforts to get to that behavior.It does not have to be food every single time.
Vocal markers or a clickers ARE information.They are a bridge between behavior and reinforcement. When shaping a behavior information are given each time an approximations of that behavior is rewarded.Without these information it'd be impossible for dogs to learn much.

Also, if you use the clicker according to the clicker trainer rules, set out by Karen Pryor in the early 90's, you will treat every click.


She says that behavior should be reinforced, not that food must always follow a click.Her articles clarify that.

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04100824
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Postby 04100824 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:23 am

Red wrote:
..food such as in Clicker Training, or information as in SATS.
Vocal markers or a clickers ARE information.They are a bridge between behavior and reinforcement. When shaping a behavior information are given each time an approximations of that behavior is rewarded.Without these information it'd be impossible for dogs to learn much.


I think this is one of the big differences. I've never seen anyone use clicker training to teach an animal about their world and the things in it or how to cope with it using things like perception modification and conditioned relaxation.

That is the kind of information that is encouraged in SATS, that, to my knowledge, is not pressed upon in clicker training.

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Postby Julie K » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:24 pm

lpyrbby wrote:I have a quick question. Has anyone been able to teach the bridge WITHOUT using food or toy motivators? I'd really like to do it like that and I think I could, I guess I just want to hear that someone was able to do it without treats to give me a bit of a confidence boost that it can be done. I'd hate to try and take steps backwards instead of forwards.

Yes, ma'am---you keep thinking that you can do it and you will do it. I've taught parrots and cats with B&T (which pales in comparison to the animals Kayce has taught), they were unbribe-able with food. Yes, exterior motivators should/may be taught, but the best motivator is your sincere care/attention and involvement in the relationship. And here is the most interesting thing about SATS--- the dogs and the trainers become enchanted with the learning/teaching experience. The dogs learn words and concepts---how cool is that---and with that comes confidence and cooperation.
Julie K

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Re clicker and food and your study program

Postby Kayce Cover » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:16 pm

Hi Red,

You were probably not on the training scene yet, but in 1991, and later, Pryor published these rules on her website. Initially, people who did not follow these rules were emphatically told that they were not "Clicker Training." If Karen Pryor is changing her tune, then I am glad and a lot of dogs are likely to be safer, as professional trainers have known for some time that creating a rigid expectation of food is downright dangerous. I hope this has something to do with the workshop I gave which Karen Pryor attended in 2004, wherein I addressed this subject.

I have a question for you because I was told that you were studying with James O'Heare, and praising him highly. I looked further, and saw that he has some pretty impressive credentials. However, I saw that they appear to be with institutions that he created, and that he awarded many of these to himself. Does he have credentials from outside organizations, degrees that are not internet based, a training mentor, and is his program accredited? Or perhaps his expertise is in competition, where Julie is expert and I am a novice! I suspect you are very knowledgeable and carefully considered these questions before applying to this program and I would appreciate a steer.

Anticipating your reply!

Sincerely,
Kayce Cover, MSEducation, Old Dominion Univ, BS Animal Science, Univ of Maryland

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Red
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Postby Red » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:01 pm

I have a question for you because I was told that you were studying with James O'Heare, and praising him highly. I looked further, and saw that he has some pretty impressive credentials. However, I saw that they appear to be with institutions that he created, and that he awarded many of these to himself. Does he have credentials from outside organizations, degrees that are not internet based, a training mentor, and is his program accredited? Or perhaps his expertise is in competition, where Julie is expert and I am a novice! I suspect you are very knowledgeable and carefully considered these questions before applying to this program and I would appreciate a steer.


Hi Kayce.Yes, I did consider which program to go with and what I am getting out from this one is worth my time and money.I am still looking for a mentor and on the spot training, I keep going to seminars but it is hard to find someone closer, who is knowledgeable enough.I am pleased with the program, so far.
The answers to my questions and the material I have to study are impressive.James is pretty good when grading essays, my mistakes don't go unnoticed and I cannot pass with A+ unless I completely understood the subject and used a correct terminology.If I can get even near his level of knowledge that would be a great accomplishment. You cannot see the classroom but I can assure you the information is excellent.
If you "suspect" that I am very knowledgeable you are mistaken .I have been learning for years but it is an on going on process that is going to last a lifetime.

You are correct about credentials not meeting the reality at times.As a matter of fact I have spent around $500 to come to your seminar, between gas, 2 days hotel, food, and the cost of the seminar itself.I came because of Julie's posts here, and your credentials.Yet you introduced the bridge to a fear aggressive male and you would have gotten your face taken off if the owner did not have a muzzle on him (which came off during the heat of the moment) and a good grip on the leash."Bo" was his name, you should remember.Getting that intensity of a fear response from a dog who was perfectly clear with his body language is a huge mistake, if I may say.How a person handles problem dogs tells me more than manuals and posts and what not.If I can make it to go to Canada I'd love to see James working with his clients.Somehow I believe he would meet my expectations. So I can agree with your point, although it seems you are bothered by me commenting on what has been said on this thread.
If you are trying to discredit him so that my opinion does not count, since I study with him, that is a bit unprofessional.I think I am going to sick with him before I listen to people speaking about "revolutionary methods" that are indeed a collection of methods that have been around for a while.The first time I have heard of intermediate and terminal bridge was back in 2001, from Inge Teblick.

As far as your other questions, this should be enough, unless you want to nitpick at it.

http://www.jamesoheare.com/

Other development courses that are not mentioned on the website are though the Canyon College and Breyer State University.He is currently getting a degree with the Athabasca University, which is fully accredited.
Other courses I will take under the CASI have other teachers, James is not the only one.Advisory board Members and instructors are Molly Stone ( Dip.A.B., CDBC, CC/SF-SPCA), Sarah Kalnajs ( B.A., CDBC, CPDT), Nicole Wilde ( B.A., CPDT), Angelica Steinker ( M.Ed., CDB, C.C.B.C., CDBC, CPDT), Dee Ganley (CPDT, CDBC, CABC), Kellie Snider (B.S., BCABA) and others.

I hope this has something to do with the workshop I gave which Karen Pryor attended in 2004, wherein I addressed this subject.


Uhm.I will ask her and see what she says.

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Postby kaytenmags » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:33 pm

Red wrote:If I can make it to go to Canada I'd love to see James working with his clients.

let me guess, he's in eastern canada?
i'm in western canada, and it seems like all the trainers i hear reccomendations for are back east :frown:

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Postby 04100824 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:24 pm

Red wrote:If you are trying to discredit him so that my opinion does not count, since I study with him, that is a bit unprofessional.


I find it interesting that you would make this remark when it seems that, in every SATS topic that you've participated in that I know of, you are trying to do exactly what you're accusing Kayce of doing to this method. Do you really even have any honest interest in B&T?

In the other thread, you started out with:

Red wrote:Uhm.This is positive training with much more talking.Where is the difference that makes this training method any better?I am definately missing it.


See what I mean?

Why not just start a clicker training/pure positive thread instead of bombing the SATS threads with debates and just accept that, for some of us, B&T has been a great thing and move on?

:dunno:

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Postby 04100824 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:14 pm

Check out Julie K's George Bailey, sanitation engineer, throwing cans away. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzkZamK9ZXk

Kayce Cover
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Postby Kayce Cover » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:50 am

In the course of putting the pbf booklet together, I gathered this information that may be of interest to people supporting/promoting pit bulls. The first is the link to Julie Kinsey's trainer contact information and class details, where pit bulls are welcome along with all other dogs. The second is a list of titles, 28 of which are on staffies, and many of which are upper level. Good breed ambassadors.

http://www.synalia.com/sats-trainers/julie-kinsey/

Some of the dogs titled by Julie (Staffies and PWCorgis)

(U-CD) U-CDX Moomintroll Mugwump (CD, CDX) UD
U-CD Tonkawa LoMing Mugwump CD SCT
(U-CD) U-CDX Triumph's Russian Roulette (CD) CDX HIC
Tonkawa Classie Lassie CD
Ch Tonkawa Yellow Hawk CD
Ch Rounder's Blueberry Hill (CD) CDX ROH
(U-CD) U-CDX Foxtrott Billie Holiday (CD) CDX HIC
Rounder's Calamity Jane CD
Ch Rounder's Sabrina CD RN SCT ROH
Ch Rounder's F Lee Bailey RN
Rounder's George Bailey (RN) RA

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Postby Carla » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:33 pm

04100824 wrote:Check out Julie K's George Bailey, sanitation engineer, throwing cans away. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzkZamK9ZXk


LOL! Honestly, I'm not up on this debate at all, and what went into training that dog, but this is pretty cute and impressive!

Carla

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Postby charlemagne » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:40 pm

Carla wrote:
04100824 wrote:Check out Julie K's George Bailey, sanitation engineer, throwing cans away. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzkZamK9ZXk


LOL! Honestly, I'm not up on this debate at all, and what went into training that dog, but this is pretty cute and impressive!

Carla


I'll second that! That is awesome. Good boy, George Bailey! Wow, it looks like you and George Bailey are quite the team, Julie.

Shirley

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Postby IamaDick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:34 pm

04100824 wrote:Check out Julie K's George Bailey, sanitation engineer, throwing cans away. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzkZamK9ZXk



Good to see ole George is still doing his job!! lol

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Postby IamaDick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:34 pm

04100824 wrote:
Red wrote:If you are trying to discredit him so that my opinion does not count, since I study with him, that is a bit unprofessional.


I find it interesting that you would make this remark when it seems that, in every SATS topic that you've participated in that I know of, you are trying to do exactly what you're accusing Kayce of doing to this method. Do you really even have any honest interest in B&T?

In the other thread, you started out with:

Red wrote:Uhm.This is positive training with much more talking.Where is the difference that makes this training method any better?I am definately missing it.


See what I mean?

Why not just start a clicker training/pure positive thread instead of bombing the SATS threads with debates and just accept that, for some of us, B&T has been a great thing and move on?

:dunno:



X2.

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Postby AddyBaby » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:31 pm

Red wrote:

As far as your other questions, this should be enough, unless you want to nitpick at it.

http://www.jamesoheare.com/

Other development courses that are not mentioned on the website are though the Canyon College and Breyer State University.He is currently getting a degree with the Athabasca University, which is fully accredited.
Other courses I will take under the CASI have other teachers, James is not the only one.Advisory board Members and instructors are Molly Stone ( Dip.A.B., CDBC, CC/SF-SPCA), Sarah Kalnajs ( B.A., CDBC, CPDT), Nicole Wilde ( B.A., CPDT), Angelica Steinker ( M.Ed., CDB, C.C.B.C., CDBC, CPDT), Dee Ganley (CPDT, CDBC, CABC), Kellie Snider (B.S., BCABA) and others.


Red - I checked out this website and I don't see the page where he talks about his training methods. Did he change the website? I would like to read it.

Thanks!


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