Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

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luvnstuff
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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby luvnstuff » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:27 pm

Sorry for the triple post, but I just saw where the dog came from. Wow. :0 (
So glad you took her in.. I have a big big thing to tell you about her.
DONT FEEL SORRY FOR HER.
really... her neediness to us feels to a human like we should or must coddle her, my experience with severe neglect and abuse is dogs like this dont need us to feel sorry for them, or even over pet or coo over them, they need BADLY a stronger person than them to draw them out of their shell, this is not a loud person or over bearing, but STRONG and worthy of them to RELAX and finally let that big breath they have been holding out.. and wonderful SAFE night of sleep and food not have have to scavange for. They need us to be strong, solid, quiet , fair, and SAFE.
A dog like this may been a a big longer to over come her life before and really open up . This could mean a month. we have to be careful to gain her trust before venturing into a new situation.
Of course she lunged and bit at a person, she thinks that she has to control her every moment right now. Just like on the streets ,everything scary had to be chased away or she had to HIDE from.
So yea... she needs you horribly, so heart in the freezer from us, and be that solid piece of the world for her. Believe me, in time you will see a totally different dog, we want her confindent in herself and YOU!
:0 )

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:02 pm

Thanks luvn! Great thread here. Please don't mind if I ask more questions.

How often should she be out of the crate? When out of the crate what should we be doing?

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby luvnstuff » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:20 pm

Xhale1227 wrote:Thanks luvn! Great thread here. Please don't mind if I ask more questions.

How often should she be out of the crate? When out of the crate what should we be doing?


Just here and there.. Its really depends on the dog. and the situation.. if she is relaxed then a bit is fine , hour or so? if she seems really pushy, needy and nervous... 1/2 hour put her away with a treat or a chewy like a nyla bone .. then go get her again in about an hour. out of the crate she should be on leash, and just pretty much ignore her, maybe do the find me for food, but read it really well.. just calm times, let her relax and if she sees you relax she will start to also. Putting to much on her even in petting can become stressful...so this is the part in time where we sit, "watch tv (life from our safe zone) and do positive touches and treats. Potty her outside , you live in an apt..so try to go where there are as few distractions as possible.. no dogs coming into her, no humans, just you two if possible.

Relax.. whistle and let her take in life CALMLY as we hit "re boot" on her new life!

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby luvnstuff » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:13 am

ok morning and firing a bit more on all pistons. let me address a few things that are in my mind to you xhale ! hang on I am chatty..haha.
cut and pasting from my work computer..so forgive typos and format issues..

I read the rest of your writings in your training thread below. And want to again address a few things a few already touched on.
.
1) You have no right to correct this dog yet around your other dog. By yelling, spanking, and correcting her she feels you are a bit of a whack job.
-why - putting you in the dogs place, picture you have been homeless, scaring off offenders for food and safety and scared.
A person you dont know, picks you up, brings you home , you do not speak their language, you are happy to have a warm
spot and food but you have NO idea what they are saying to you. They hand you a baby and you dont know what to do with it
it cries and they yell foreign words at you and slap you across the face.
Later they hand the baby to you again, it cries and they again yell some wierd words at you and slap you in the face.
Now in the meantime they have drug you to places that speak more foreign words, yanked you around, forced you to talk
to more people you dont understand, take you back home.. hand you THAT baby again, and yell and slap you yet again.
-ask yourself- How do YOU feel about the baby now. Do you WANT to hold it.. or do you WANT it to GO AWAY...so you will
stop getting slapped and yelled at? We must avoid making your other pup a "point of conflict" we want the puppy to be a
happy thing not every time she sees it getting harsh correction, or she may think to take the point of conflict out will make her
life easier, I say this not to scare you, but to show you how easily bad this can go. Its a common mistake people make with
children, cats and other dogs, they overly correct and do not TRAIN what we DO WANT from our new dog. Creating resentment.

2) You have no right again to correct this dog with corrective collars/yankings./etc.
-why- The dog doesnt respect you AT all at this point. Its on full on guard and its true personality is still hiden. We want to draw
out this inner dog and see who she really is. By correcting her we keep forcing this true personality down and keeping her on
guard. A set up for those "ALL OF A SUDDEN" moments.. no the dog is being forced to accept more than it can. And feels
she has no one to look up to.
Some may argue this that you encounter,, telling you that you have to become this persons boss instantly... they are wrong.period.
positive rewards and getting to KNOW each other is very important..
-ask yourself- do you LIKE or WANT a boss or coach that instructs you HOW to do your job and then praises you for doing a job well?
or do you WANT to work for a boss that shows you nothing but constantly tells you how much you SUCK .
Why is it that we just expect dogs to do as we want without showing them or better yet teaching them?

3) Why no walks yet? She doesnt trust your judgement, so far in HER mind you look a bit whacky, which could be bringing out more
neediness behaviour. She gets praise for being afraid and needy, she gets yelled at or yanked for taking care of things that scare her.
You , in her mind are NOT there for her to lean on.. you look WEAK to her. The solid rock you can be is a needy cooing pile of sludge
to her. Dogs need a solid safe ground to LOOK to for guidance. Walks right now are everything thing coming "AT" her. so she is going
to react to everything that scares her in "GET AWAY!" . Walks encounter, people, sounds, dogs, loose dogs, kids, moving objects, 10000 smells.
This can overwhelm a dog that is telling us I AM OVERWHELMED already. this where where we see dogs lunging or nipping at other dogs ...they
are on guard 110%

4) DONT CODDLE -
why- same as above, coddling a scared dog makes us look weak to them. We can be solid and praise when we see fit, but to hold
pet , coo when the dog is showing behaviours like fear we are INCREASING her fears. Not showing her that "hey it doesnt bother us! "
as we stay solid allowing the dog the moment to GET over her fear, look to us "hey they arent reacting..maybe all is ok?"
dont praise fearful , needy, scared moments. But reward when you see her relax a bit, just a nice soft pet "good girl" and thats it.
over coddling can bring out more neediness . we want to BUILD her confidence in her and in her of you.

ok
that was alot..but its morning and my mind is clicking a bit more on. I think I forgot how much adopt a days take out of my head and body.
So many questions and wrestling a toy obsessed pit bull for 4 hours.. haha.
:0 )

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:58 am

Thanks! God you don't know how hard it is to not coddle her. Such a sweet face and petrified of everything. I will try.

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:40 am

Also, I am the only one living in my place so I can't do the find me for food exercise unfortunately. I have a stuffed animal she loves, and for play I have been throwing it around for her. She loves to go fetch it and bring it back to me.

Is it ok if she watches me play with my puppy from a distance. I keep her tied up to my dresser, and she has a little bed she likes to lay on right next to it. I usually then play with my pup while she observes. I heard this will help her to watch us play. But I also dont want her to get jealous.

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:54 am

http://fearfuldogs.com/myth-of-reinforcing-fear/

What do you think about that? She says that comforting a dog when he is scared is the RIGHT thing to do.

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby star_frances » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:07 pm

luvnstuff wrote:4) DONT CODDLE -
why- same as above, coddling a scared dog makes us look weak to them. We can be solid and praise when we see fit, but to hold
pet , coo when the dog is showing behaviours like fear we are INCREASING her fears. Not showing her that "hey it doesnt bother us! "
as we stay solid allowing the dog the moment to GET over her fear, look to us "hey they arent reacting..maybe all is ok?"
dont praise fearful , needy, scared moments. But reward when you see her relax a bit, just a nice soft pet "good girl" and thats it.
over coddling can bring out more neediness . we want to BUILD her confidence in her and in her of you.


You can't reinforce feelings, you can only reinforce specific behaviors. So comforting the dog when she is scared IS OKAY, if it makes her less fearful. Yes, you want to build the dogs confidence and independence. But if the dog is over-threshhold you have to get her into a calm state before any training or counter-conditioning can take place.

There is science behind this. Not just speculation or theory - real science.

From Patricia McConnell:
"The bottom line is you could indeed cause problems by inadvertently reinforcing behavior in certain contexts. There are two things that are important to remember here: one is that fear is an emotion, and “reinforcement” refers to something that increases a behavior. You can’t, technically, reinforce an emotion, but you can increase the frequency of a particular behavior. In the case of thunder phobic dogs I don’t think there is ever a problem, because you are trying to decrease the emotion, which would indirectly decrease the problem behavior. Besides, if you sit beside your dog and stroke him while it thunders, and he stops pacing in circles but sits beside you, then if you are reinforcing anything it is him sitting beside you and not pacing."


The original article:
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/yo ... nderstorms

A newer, updated version:
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/re ... phobia-iii

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:44 pm

Thanks star!

Would you still agree though that at the moment, for these two weeks, I should avoid petting her much?

By the way here is Mischa's before pic.

Image

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby star_frances » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:49 pm

Xhale1227 wrote:Thanks star!

Would you still agree though that at the moment, for these two weeks, I should avoid petting her much?


I would avoid petting her overly much, yes, and I would start teaching her to sit or do something else small and reasonable (of your choice) to earn your affection, as the basis for a NILIF program. An automatic sit-for-attention is a beautiful thing in a dog. =)

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby luvnstuff » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:57 pm

to star:

I have to disagree with praising fearful behaivoiur in your comments I have not read the book or the links you qouted,
so I am not debating the author her teachings or anything else...just working from my own life.
.. in the dogs mind it is prasing the fearful behaviour.
a dog cowers.. we hold it pet it, the dog thinks it is being prasied for the fear "be afraid..good dog..be afraid"

I have proven this over and over with my dogs since 2004 and was trained for two years prior to taking in dogs at all on how to work
with shelter animals and my own problematic dog,
I have taken in and over and over time many more with dogs I have helped.
We have to give the dog that moment to find calm or a hint of confidence allowing it to absorb the fear and realize that it can overcome it
and this is the moment we want to praise.
I call it Watching TV. just sitting and allowing the dog to observe, if it is panting and running around on leash mind you, I just
allow it to do this. Not correcting , not petting, not doing anything, not trying to convinice it other wise when it sits, or just looks any bit calmer, i pet it, slightly.
I have done this with severe cases and it really works.
I have also had people coo and coddle and the same dog will hit the floor. tried and true, these abused dogs need something solid
to look at. they need a safe place to observe things that use to be scary to them (sometimes just life, or cars going down the road , or people
walking by)
It may not be in a book or a paper, but in real life this works miracles.
Just allowing life in,.. and adding to the dogs enviroments as they over come , not blasting it with life, just slowly watching a new show
on that "TV of life" over coming it .
Its hard to sepearate human feelings from dogs feelings, and yes they do have emotions ! this I do believe too!


to Xhale did you read the find me for food? or any of the writings posted before?

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:58 pm

star_frances wrote:
Xhale1227 wrote:Thanks star!

Would you still agree though that at the moment, for these two weeks, I should avoid petting her much?


I would avoid petting her overly much, yes, and I would start teaching her to sit or do something else small and reasonable (of your choice) to earn your affection, as the basis for a NILIF program. An automatic sit-for-attention is a beautiful thing in a dog. =)


Gotcha. Yes I have been doing NILF for a day now. She has a habit of jumping up on me while I'm sitting down, and licking my face until I start petting her. I have begun to just ignore it completely, and she is already starting to learn it will no longer work.

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby Xhale1227 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:00 pm

luvnstuff wrote:to Xhale did you read the find me for food? or any of the writings posted before?


I cannot do find me for food as I live alone.

As of now the only game we play is fetch with a toy she likes.

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby luvnstuff » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:06 pm

? Sure you can I do and I live alone do the open box step ..and use the all four paws on the floor for treat or per !

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Re: Two Weeks! Give em a break! :0 )

Postby star_frances » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:11 pm

luvnstuff wrote:to star:

I have to disagree with praising fearful behaivoiur in your comments I have not read the book or the links you qouted,
so I am not debating the author her teachings or anything else...just working from my own life.
.. in the dogs mind it is prasing the fearful behaviour.
a dog cowers.. we hold it pet it, the dog thinks it is being prasied for the fear "be afraid..good dog..be afraid"


You're welcome to disagree, but there is scientific data proving this is not accurate.

You might want to actually read the links!


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