AT LONG LAST! JESSUP SPILLS ALL ABOUT THE "OUT"!

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
Pit Stop

thanks

Postby Pit Stop » Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:55 am

Thank you for posting such excellent information, Diane.

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:29 pm

You're welcome and thanks. Sorry I have not posted more, I had a wonderful day at schutzhund working with the dogs, and got home to try and figure out how to cram my 2 dog metal dog box plus a huge wire crate into a small Honda CRV. Then blow more leaves, then go into house and collapse! lol

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Postby dawgdays » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:22 am

Do you recommend this toy switch technique for leash tugging too? We're trying to get Rox to come back to the handler with the leash tugs, but in her little exciteable brain, leash tugging is just waaaaay too exciting, much more exciting than the stinky old toy switch trick. She hangs on and on and on, pleading for us to get exciting again. We'll go limp, get boring and back up into her to get the 'Out'. No fun!

This is the "Please Pull Moooooore" face.

Image

Maybe she needs to learn out with just toy first, eh? Add leash later?

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:05 pm

You're on the right track. You need to either REDUCE the level of the toy she is playing with or INCREASE the level of the toy she will switch too. That is why it should be THE SAME toy.

So, you can either work her with TWO LEASHES, on in hand, one on her, or two toys, which present her with less stimulation. Believe me, tugging on the leash is on par with hanging off a fighting decoy - and yes, the dog can learn to come off both instantly on one command. Try the above and let me know what happens.

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Postby luvnstuff » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:12 pm

Very nice writing! Whoohoho! love to see folks working in prey drive and bite RELEASE.. yes dogs need this..as predators and as an outlet. Many many trainers try to squash this drive, then cant understand why the handler cant stop the dog from killing a squirrel or something inappropriate... the dog has NO RELEASE! It needs as a predator to BITE to KILL (even a sock) it needs to be a D O G :twisted: LOL

I have been taught similar ways.. but with a few differences..

In prey drive... beginnings.
Yes build the drive..but in the beginning let them win. , As let them CATCH the toy..let them prance with it , the tug on a rope.. tug a bit..but keep a 6 foot line on the dog and then grab the leash and just kind of walk them in a circle.. proud as a peacock that they got the tug.. let them WIN.. let them have their kill.. so to speak.
Like a momma, bringing them small prey to practice with. Let them win, build their confidence.
Calmly take in the leash and squat and hold the dog to you in an embrace. .their side to you.. in the very beginning offer food here, and say OUT when they drop in, insert yummy treat. (food only in the beginning). Then GOOD DOG! TOUCH the dog, pat her or him.. your hand is the treat too!
Touch the dog in the tug too. pat his side and reinforce GOOD DOG!

When the dog outs, praise and then
Tell them to sit, repeat the sequence.. letting them win again and again,
Soon your dog will be tugging like a mad fool , as they build confidence and release.
Work your way to faster catch.. embrace the dog .. in full heightened prey drive. Alto of dogs will drop the tug here, pat your dog, say out when they drop in.. praise him or her ..and continue play. The embrace allows them to give into you in their heightened state.. you the alpha..the leader.

you really want to build their confidence, as Diane suggested too.
And to allow the release of a full bite. Let them tug , not thrash or growl..and this is a sign of over excitability .. you want a clean clear TUG...you dont want them to slip into impatience or aggression. Some dogs you can pick off the ground even at a full tug!

Scooter the foster is doing really great at this exercise. Allowing me to embrace her and she outs on command now.. and will sit and WAIT for the next turn. This is something that she really excels at. My Jack does good, he bites great..but will NOT allow me to embrace him, which tells me he still is battling me for the alpha position, I should be able to have him SUBMIT to me the alpha like Scooter does, but he still fights this and goes into growling and jumping away. I usually end up just walking away from him, leaving him standing like an idiot in the back yard, like "hey where did you go"

Regardless of what method you use. This is a great exercise to get your dog thinking and working out. You would be amazed at how fast even the strongest and hyperist dogs tire out (well.. some.. LOL).
If the dogs starts to loose interest .. PUT the toy away.. dont let the game become an issue. It should stay fun and focused. You want to avoid conflict .

(I know I plug my trainer alot.. but it is his methods I have been trained at.. so I feel to be fair to him, I must say his methods again...

Puppy for Life Training by Sam Maletesta.
www.talkdogtv.com - he does have a video for sale..if his site is still down you can contact me here and I can contact him if interested.)

please train yourself to train your dogs. Their lives depend on you. :thumbsup:

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:17 pm

but will NOT allow me to embrace him, which tells me he still is battling me for the alpha position,


An interesting concept. In my experience I have not seen dogs doing this for dominance reasons, but rather for "nervy" reasons. I.e., they were not comfy with full body contact in ANY situation because Nature was telling them that it is dangerous (which it is). For instance, Dobermans have a HELLUVA time dealing with body contact during bite work as they are big terriers, and terriers KNOW that body contact is D.A.N.G.E.R. when working large varmits. They flash in and out, nipping and shaking, but not wanting to close and hold like say, a confident rottie or bulldog does.

One test I do for temperament is when a dog is on the springpole I will just reach out and touch (grasp) their front feet. If the dog is a bit nervy, they will growl, shake, and otherwise try and move away. Calm, confident dogs have no real problem with it. THe next step is to move in and pet the dog closely on the body, kinda like you are talking about. Nervy dogs drop off and move away - they are not comfortable with this. Calm dogs handle it with either no response or slight shaking and growling.

I am interested if your dog shows "dominance" behavior any other time or place?

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Postby luvnstuff » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:33 pm

The embrace is excatly that..and to give into an embrace shows "giving in" and right too, that they natrualy dont want to give in.. but they must as your suboardinate (sp??)
and also so true Diane..if a dog is not confident or is unsure..or to "high" they will refuse the embrace.. accepting it is part of the training, so to speak. They have to be sure of the handler and the giving in for them to really give in. And it too helps calm them and praises them.
This excercise works best if a dog is not over pet..yanno, make your hugs and pets mean more. It is hard not to pet and pat your dog for doing nothing.. for we as humans want to pet and a dog sees this as praise. Praise for what? LOL.
This has been a battle for me, to ignore my lil buddy.

And my dog and his dominance..
OH YEA..it is our number one battle..and he is one big and fuzzy TERRIER..LOL he is not a pittie mix at all.

Show dominance..yes this dog shows dominance, over excitablity , no patience, he barks and yaps and bites at me (not aggressive but over excitable biting) when playin.. leaps ..power pounces at me like a tigger. He is a mess..and the dog that lead me to the trainer I speak of. As he is also dog aggressive..and is WAY WAY way to protective over ME his mommy. I do prey drive with him a bit..he has a heck of a bite which is great..but I cannot control his impatience .

Wierd about your terrier thing..and the dobermans. I never thought of that as a breed thing..over excitablity yes..but not , not giving in!

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Postby Sarah » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:30 am

I would agree with Diane that more dogs dislike being embraced because of the danger aspect than because of dominance. Being embraced is not a comfortable thing for a dog. They don't naturally see it as a sign of affection, as we do. Dogs can learn to accept an embrace, at varying levels of comfort, depending on the dog, but I doubt it ever means the same to a dog that it does to a person.

I do hug my dogs, and they'd probably rather I didn't, though they tolerate it. Of the 2, Elmo is a bit more relaxed about it than Tully, which makes sense as Elmo is in general a more confident dog.

jayL

Postby jayL » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:40 am

When in a hangtime frenzy, a dog who would be touched (in a normal way) and would react as if hurt is handler sensitive?

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Postby luvnstuff » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:44 pm

I will have to run your questions by Sam again. I know he explained it to me, but I am not good at remembering..lol

but part of the ACCEPTANCE of the embrace is a part of this.
It tells the dog that he , even under high stress is not numero uno. You want your dog to build confidence, (let him win) but you also want him to "Turn it off" and still know that you are in control. A dog that is in full tug and out of control is not a good thing.

The embrace reinforces the alpha role, without confrotation or confliction. The dog still wins.. he wins your affection and he is still safe with his "kill". Alot of dog will drop the prey here, and that is a sign of their pleasure and acceptance in their kill.

You want the dog to build confidence, thus you do not pull the tug out. offering another toy works too, as it is a win win situation I think. But with one toy the offering is you and your affection. You dont want the prey toy to build aggression or conflict. I have seen my trainer pick the back feet of a dog up when the dog refuses to give up..and they drop it instantly too. then pet and praise.. it isnt as confrontational as yanking a tug out, or putting your thumb in their mouth to disengage.. the feet get a more" hey whats going on ??!" reaction.. so you are still in no conflict.

If (like my Jack) you are still getting alot of conflict then your dog really isnt ready.

that explain at all?
its hard for me to explain it right. But I have seen progressive training like this and wow does it work when done right!

jayL

Postby jayL » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:19 pm

luvnstuff wrote:I have seen my trainer pick the back feet of a dog up when the dog refuses to give up..and they drop it instantly too. then pet and praise.. it isnt as confrontational as yanking a tug out, or putting your thumb in their mouth to disengage.. the feet get a more" hey whats going on ??!" reaction.. so you are still in no conflict.


I have always tried to use positive only methods and negative reinforcements are my last resource. In my opinion, lifting the dog by the gutt till its rear is off the ground or any form of pinching by the throat to make a dog out and plainly praising is not as effective as compared to when the dog outs (drops the prey item) and "rewards" with a chase and tug again (or as Diane mentioned, rewarding higher level of reinforcer which is the other tug or ball with a happier tone).

The praise only methods would most likely be a form of a negative reinforcement since you have taken away it's prey item (reward). Thus, praising your dog after he gives up has taught your dog to loose everytime it's lifted, pinched, corrected, etc.

On the other hand, since the prey item is the all out positive reinforment the dog recieves, after the dog drops the prey item, (no praise is required here) you just grab the prey item and make him chase and tug again. This method will then teach your dog that if he drops, a new game or chase of the prey (which is what the dog really wants), will start over again. You can then raise the criteria by seconds after he has dropped the item before the next chase.

A sit, down, stay or focus before a chase may easily be taught in this manner. The reward all along is the chase and possession of the prey item. And at this point, you are using your dog's natural prey drive. No negative reinforcers involved, just your dog's natural talent of generalizing the whole process.
Last edited by jayL on Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jayL

Postby jayL » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:39 pm

A bit off topic, but i'll just add anyway :

On what I've learned as a novice handler, some nervy dogs tend to bite or divert attention towards their handlers during a defense/fight/prey drive frenzy. During their peak of drives, the dog becomes overly driven to win and not realizing if it's their handler's touch/tap of encouragement or a decoys attempt to embrace or wrestle. A few signs on my opinion to what I've witnessed are : (1) reaction to handlers pet on the rear spacially if the dog is not looking (2) moves away or reacts too much during an encouragement tap, during a grip on a tug or sleeve (3) and a dog now allowing it's handler for an embrace.

We usually proof dogs by asking handlers to securely carry their dogs and run around in a circle. The dogs must not react in any way curious, insecure or agressively (usually by attempting to move alarmed or frightened). A dog who trusts it's handler would just sit back and enjoy the ride.

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Postby Sarah » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:01 pm

luvnstuff wrote:The embrace reinforces the alpha role, without confrotation or confliction. The dog still wins.. he wins your affection and he is still safe with his "kill".


But an embrace is confrontative, unless a dog has very specifically been conditioned to accept it, and it does not mean affection to a dog. Dogs aren't primates.

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Postby luvnstuff » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:42 pm

To qoute:

"In my opinion, lifting the dog by the gutt till its rear is off the ground or any form of pinching by the throat to make a dog out and plainly praising is not as effective as compared to when the dog outs (drops the prey item) and "rewards" with a chase and tug again (or as Diane mentioned, rewarding higher level of reinforcer which is the other tug or ball with a happier tone). "

I never said lifting a dog by its GUT. or pinching or even collaring a dog?????
Lifting a foot or even both feet gently isnt near that. And not done aggressivly...this is done only when you have trust of your dog and he just isnt outing at all.....
The best way is to offer treat at first and praise on the word OUT when they drop it.
I think it is hard to spell it out and now show it in real time...
Your dog should trust you to play a good game of tug.
If you cant lift a foot of the dog you are teaching to bite and out..then the dog shouldnt be doing this fun learning game.?

Quote
"But an embrace is confrontative, unless a dog has very specifically been conditioned to accept it, and it does not mean affection to a dog. Dogs aren't primates."

An embrace isnt a HUG. Holding the dog to you should calm the dog. Your touch , unless you already forgot it was a dog, and the dog is sleeping in your bed, and being petted and praised for just standing there breathing, is a calmative , or should be,. your dog should be able to give into you the alpha. If it is confronted or has conflict in you touching it, there is your problem number one.
Ripping a toy from its mouth is confrontative. Pulling it turns the dog on even more to tug and then if you rip it out, the dog in its eyes lost confidence. Think of the first thing a momma wolf brings her cubs.. is it a big prey animal..no it is a mouse or a shrew , for the pup to play and WIN with.
Even stuffing another toy in there could be confusing.. you out..but get the same toy as a reward. What are you going to do with your dog if it charges a cat or a squirel or worse yet a kid and your "out" is always stuffing an equal toy in its head., stuff another squirell in there?

The embrace is part of the training.. not the always. It is the begginings as if your dog, no matter the age is a puppy, you are touching it..
The out must be learned for behaviour and control.

I see this is going way off topic. I am sure Diane has great success, there are many ways on gaining success. I am not here to debate, just show another way of gaining the success of prey drive .

so this will be my last post on this subject.
I have been working for two years training and learning. It is a work in progress, and I have seen great successes with many dogs.
Scooter is one of them as is Bub and Gizmo my last two fosters.
This trainer competes in this Shizuahnd (oh i ruined the spelling) and this method has worked for him and for us.

Not meaning to debate.
I was thrilled to see people training in prey drive., so many trainers really do squash and "Warn" against prey and bite drive.
I was thrilled to see Dianes post on prey drive.

No matter the method if you get results then life is good, right? :peace:

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Postby Sarah » Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:33 am

An embrace isnt a HUG. Holding the dog to you should calm the dog. Your touch , unless you already forgot it was a dog, and the dog is sleeping in your bed, and being petted and praised for just standing there breathing, is a calmative , or should be,. your dog should be able to give into you the alpha. If it is confronted or has conflict in you touching it, there is your problem number one.


I'm not sure what you mean by that... my dogs do sleep in my bed, and are frequently petted and praised for just being there looking cute. Look at my signature if you think I have any problems with training my dogs.

Touching a dog is calmative. Embracing is not calmative, it is restrictive and isn't a natural way that a dog uses to show affection or to calm. These are canines, not primates. Primates (such as us) use gestures such as an embrace, or an arm over the shoulders, as an affectionate or calming gesture. Canines (such as our dogs) do not. The closest analogue in canine behavior, a head or leg put over the other dog's body, is a dominance gesture. Dominance gestures are not calming, they are confrontative. They are used to establish dominance, and as such, are open to dispute. (any dog putting a head or leg over my Elmo's back is asking for trouble) A clearly dominant canine doesn't resort to such crude gestures because they don't need them.

Now fortunately for the interactions of humans and dogs, canines are masters of social cues, and can learn to accept the primate tendency to cling. Still, a dog that is unhappy in a situation isn't going to be very comfortable if embraced. They are forced to interpret this through genetic conditioning which tells them that you are acting like an insecure leader. An insecure leader isn't safe... a dog would much rather have a clear leader.
(this is assuming the dog knows it's you, and it's not just under attack from another source)

BTW, how do I get my dog to out while tugging? I say "out".


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