AT LONG LAST! JESSUP SPILLS ALL ABOUT THE "OUT"!

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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BabyReba
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Postby BabyReba » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:27 pm

A quick question on another "out" technique. I dunno that it would be considered positive, but it's also not compulsion.

I do a lot of different things with the dogs, including the toy switch routine, but I've also had some success using a technique an old-school trainer once gave me with my old GSD. She told that if the dog refuses to "out" to grip the toy in one hand and the dog's collar in the other hand and stop fighting the dog or pulling the toy. Just wait. Eventually, most dogs either get confused or bored or they just don't like that the game isn't fun anymore and eventually loosen their grip, which is when you start to praise them . . . after a few tries and confusion on the dog's part, the dog outs.

I can't say whether it'd work for a really drivey dog because I haven't really worked with one, but it has worked with a lot of the pet quality dogs I've had come through my house.

What about a technique like this? Good? Fair? Poor? I'm just wonderin' . . . and for the record, the toy switch becomes some of my dogs' fave game after a while, yee ha!

jayL

Postby jayL » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:06 pm

I have tried the same method with my other dog. This may be a poor method for dogs being trained to grip or during prey development, but a good one for very highly driven dogs.

For the first part, during the prey development stage, we want the dog to really get to know the prey better and get really excited about it in order for them to exert that extra effort we want to catch, chase and grip on the prey. Boring or waiting for their drives to shutdown would not be a good idea for beginners.

Intermidiate dogs know when the chase is on and they know they will win. This method can be applied and since dogs with already high prey drives can easily adjust to switiching from drive mode to shutdown. Generalizing the whole process is not at all very difficult, specially if what you're working with is a very hyper dog.

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BabyReba
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Postby BabyReba » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:31 pm

thanks jay, that does make sense. :thumbsup:

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:39 pm

It certainly can work. I have seen schutzhund people do it, though they usually hang the dog by the collar till it chokes out, not the greatest way to "reward" a dog for a good grip! :roll:

I have myself had to wait up to 15 minutes for a highly prey driven or slightly nervy dog to release. While I am a patient positive trainer, if I can find a method that cuts down on that kind of time, I will.

Sorry about not posting more parts. I've been slammed at work and home. :crybaby:

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:11 pm

Just wanted to apologize for not getting more posted. I had to get FBM #7 out, and #8 is staring me in the face. Since these things don't get made into stickies, it is discouraging to print all this here and then it is gone, and the same question comes up again and again. Hence, Fully Bully Magazine! It seems the perfect way for me to put a lot of great training and positive PR type stuff in one place and have it accessable always. That is why I am doing it. I want to be able to reply to folks about springpoles, treadmills, teaching the blinds, teaching the retrieve, feeding bones, etc, etc and say "here it is". My web site is not big enough for it all.

So, anywho, when I get a chance I will finish up. Getting two dogs ready for schutzhund trials and with mag, time here is now very limited. :sad:

kernel scurry

Postby kernel scurry » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:43 pm

bump because its working! :)

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Postby kazuo » Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:17 am

If anyone has a request to make a thread 'sticky', all you have to do is ask.

We can't keep up with every thread, so feel free to drop us a note if there is information out there that should be marked 'sticky'.

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:56 pm

I SWEAR I will get more posted. In the mean time, I got the second Ivan Balabanov tape and it is the closest thing to what I do I have seen. I would suggest ANYONE SERIOUS about competing in obedience get his two tapes and take his advice on just about everything except the retreive, which he doesn't seem to know how to teach positively. But everything else is very good.
Warning: this method will NOT work with deadhead dogs. This method is for WORKING DOGS - dogs with working drives. So don't waste your money if your dog moonlights as a doorstop.

Diane Jessup

Part 4?

Postby Diane Jessup » Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:26 pm

Lost track of which part I'm on.

OK, so for sport dogs, we have a dog who understands outing for a second toy. The dog has been spitting the toy out on the ground and then getting the second toy. Now we need to start introducing the "out!" to an object more like a sleeve or leg. So, get your dog playing with the jute. Play hard, then freeze up. WAIT FOUR SECONDS and then firmly but quietly say your release command. If, by all that is good, the dog lets go, IMMEDIATELY pop the jute and let the dog rebite. Yes, rebite. A quick release EARNS a QUICK rebite. That is what the dog will be working for. That is why this method works so well with really tough, really hard dogs that like to bite. You could correct them to be-jezzus, and they won't stop the fight, but let them know they have a way of MAKING the game more exciting, they will comply!

Take time with this. Don't go from the first out on a jute toy to out on a sleeve the first week! Please! Teach the dog the rules... Depending on your game and your aims, you will work the dog to release on a freeze, or NOT release on a freeze, but only on command. I teach my dogs to release on a freeze because they are sport dogs and I don't have to "help" them at a trial, however, should they get wound up, I CAN say the out command, which, at that point, is almost like a second command. However, with dogs trained in this method, you rarely see them refuse to out. Why should they? Better things will come to them if they do, and they know it.

So by the end of the first week, you should be fighting the dog on the jute nice and rough, and then able to give the release command and then immediately pop it back to the dog.

PLEASE!!!!
Please dont make the mistake of teaching the bark in front as part of the out exercise!!!! This is not the time or place for it. You will just confuse and mess up the dog who is NOT going to get instant reward for his nice out if you mess around trying to get a bark!!!! IMPORTANT!

The bark (guard) is taught in a totally different setting. (see FBM) lol However, we are now going to start asking the dog to hold his "out" longer and longer. Of course, just a few seconds at a time.

About this time, you can, if the dog is firm on the sleeve, start the release with the sleeve. Remember, the sleeve is a high level stimulus, and you will need to step back and take it from the begining again, keeping the sleeve work easy, stopping and holding it before the out, just like what you did when you first started. It will go much quicker this time. The dog will learn quicker.

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PittyLuvers
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Need distraction for Therapy Dog

Postby PittyLuvers » Wed May 25, 2005 8:41 am

We need a distraction for our certified, very sweet and gentle, Therapy Dog, Rudy (a rescue - may have some fear issues). He is a very popular Therapy dog and we've added a shelter to our list last week, and now the Alzeimer's Unit wants him every week. Problem - when he is on a slippery floor, usually the entry ways, he "splays" out and becomes dead weight/treats don't work. Everybody laughs but I have to drag him out under his arms or pull him out - not good for the back. He responds to tugs and toys, not treats. Once I've left the therapy room I'm considering putting on his prong collar (rule - only flat collars in therapy area) and correcting him if he lays down - he gets the message with the prong. Need ideas fast! Thank you.

Frank

Accepting an embrace

Postby Frank » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:39 am

I am new to the Pit Bull Forum and was reading an old posting about dogs accepting an embrace or a big hug.

I adopted in December of 2004 an approximately year to year and half Amstaff. Prior to this I had a Newfoundland when he died I waited a year and then went to the PBRC and looked for a dog to replace my Newfie.

I was familiar with the Amstaff breed and did not care if it was an Amstaff or Pit Bull.

What I got was a wonderful friend that makes me smile every day. He is so good it scares me. Not knowing his background I spent a lot of time exposing him to as many different things as I could. He just has fun no matter what we do.

Needless to say I hug him a lot because I appreciate him so much, he likes it and looks forward to it. There are times when a hug is not welcome, meal time and playing are not hugging time because he is on a mission and does not like to be deterred.

I guess I feel about Socks (that's his name) like Diane Jessup feels about Dread he just plays a special place in your life. I have a lot to look forward to.

Frank

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:18 am

Thanks Frank. Welcome to the forum. :thumbsup:

boots111

"Out" with living thing (accident)

Postby boots111 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:30 am

Diane,
I have taught my dogs to release all toys, and they do it very willingly no matter how much of a frenzy they are in. I can call them off the springpole from across the yard and all that, but when my staffy caught a stray cat in the yard and they got in a fight, I could not get her to release on any command. Obviously my brother and I jumped in and got everyone separated, and no real harm was done (cat was perfectly fine, and the dog had an infection from a bite and had to go to the vet, but that's it). Is it a pipe dream that I could ever train either of them to release on command if this ever happens again? By the way, I have no goals of doing schutzhund or anything like that, just a general safety question.
Thanks
Dave

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:26 pm

I would say that in most cases it is. The amount of training the average person does, is not sufficient to get a "hot" or "driven" dog off a cat, dog or real human fight.

I've seen it done, and generally it was a softer dog, or a dog which had been trained daily (like a police K-9).

I myself have no expectations that some of my dogs would come off live animals. But I have been surprised before. Once Dirk got in with my ram and grabbed him by the ear. At that time I was training everyday in ring, and I just ran up, calmed myself, and shouted, "Dirk, Out, Heel". He did. You could have knocked my over with a feather! lol

shannypits
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wish you were here!

Postby shannypits » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:36 pm

Diane I love you! :thumbsup: :)) :inlove: :bowdown: I would like nothing better than to have you here in Wisconsin to show these german shepherd lovers that pit bulls are wonderful schutzhund prospects too. First they seem to think that they are "just like any other dog" -- then, when drive gets high (the time where they would undoubtedly praise and cheer their shepherds on) they get down on my dogs as "crazy, aggressive, maybe you shouldn't have them here... too fixated.. blah blah blah. I am in a club that is extremely competetive and every time they bitch about my pits I just wish I had you next to me to shut their asses down. :bully: :moon: You are my hero, I've said it before and I'll say it to the day I die-- THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR SUPPORT AND TEACHINGS. I LOVE YOU. YOU ROCK!! :dj: :dance:


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