When a pit bull attacks a human...

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
User avatar
Jazzy
Pit Bull Princess Pamperer
Posts: 7651
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:52 pm
Location: New England

Postby Jazzy » Thu May 15, 2008 5:25 am

In Culture Clash Jean Donaldson talks about a "bite threshold" model of aggression.

I am quoting her (to let you know this isn't me & so as not to plagerize :thumbsup: )

"All dogs have a threshold at which they will bite".

"There are no doubt dogs for whom no amount of abuse would make them defend themselves, but these are not normal animals. The Walt Disney ideal, however would have us believe that absolute pacifism is the norm for dogs with the exception of extreme provocation or some "defence of master" scenario. Announcing that nice dogs don't bite and that vicious dogs do is like saying that nice people never argue or get angry and vicious people do".

The model is used in treating dogs with aggression issues. The risk factors which contribute to the individual dog's bite threshold being reached are identified and then the owners can work to either change or manage behavior.

But my question again, is why are people so invested in having dogs that will never bite? It seems to go against the grain of a dog's natural behavior...they communicate and defend themselves with their mouths...why wouldn't they bite under certain circumstances? Isn't our job as responsible owners to know what those circumstances are, to de-sensitize and re-train when possible and if not possible to retrain (for example, I don't think you can "retrain" your dog not to bite if someone hits it with a rock) to either prevent those circumstances from occuring or protect the dog from experiencing them.

User avatar
defendabull
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 5584
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:54 pm
Location: some babylon in cali

Postby defendabull » Thu May 15, 2008 4:07 pm

i know it's harsh but...
i don't feel sorry for this
kid. i just don't. he is old
enough to know better.

he mistreated and provoked
the dog and i expect every
time he looks into a mirror he
will be reminded of that.

maybe he will think twice before
he mistreats another animal.
:frown:

User avatar
Jorsher
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1186
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:05 am
Location: Madison, AL

Postby Jorsher » Thu May 15, 2008 7:30 pm

defendabull wrote:i know it's harsh but...
i don't feel sorry for this
kid. i just don't. he is old
enough to know better.

he mistreated and provoked
the dog and i expect every
time he looks into a mirror he
will be reminded of that.

maybe he will think twice before
he mistreats another animal.
:frown:


Unfortunately the kid will probably hate them with a passion now and mistreat them more...

User avatar
Lovethypitbull
Pit Bull Forum Addict
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:18 am
Location: Opelousas,Louisiana
Contact:

Postby Lovethypitbull » Thu May 15, 2008 8:46 pm

I only read the first page of replies so sorry if this info was posted already.


Regarding aggression in the breed:

DOG toward DOG aggression IS a characteristic of most terriers, including the APBT.
DOG toward HUMAN aggression IS NOT a characteristic of the APBT at all in any form.
Any APBT that displays dog toward human aggression in any form, unless saving the life of their owners, should be euthanized. The APBT is not a guardian breed and should never act like one.

While various degrees of dog to dog aggression are to be expected. Handlers at all times MUST and are expected to maintain control of their dogs at all times and dogs must be trained and socialized around other dogs enough that they can be moved through crowded show venues without danger to other dogs. If a dog is out of control excuse the competitor.

Any dog showing aggression toward a human I don’t care what the breed or reason the dog should be euthanized. (working sports such as Schutzhund exhibit controlled aggression toward a padded suit not toward a human)

This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm.

Judges ,a dog brimming over with enthusiasm should be an automatic PLUS!!!! A dog with this type of joy that has a fault in conformation should win over a dog with no personality that does not have a fault. That is how vital the temperament is to the future of this breed!

Do not put up dead head, no personality dogs. These are terriers and should act like terriers.

Bottom line: The Standard notes that the essential characteristic of the breed are courage and a zest for life. The APBT should be ALIVE and NEVER NEVER NEVER FEARFUL!!!!

An APBT should always have a happy smile when meeting new people and should wag their tails enthusiastically especially as puppies.

falldeepintoxen

Postby falldeepintoxen » Thu May 15, 2008 9:03 pm

defendabull wrote:i know it's harsh but...
i don't feel sorry for this
kid. i just don't. he is old
enough to know better.

he mistreated and provoked
the dog and i expect every
time he looks into a mirror he
will be reminded of that.

maybe he will think twice before
he mistreats another animal.
:frown:


I agree. So much.

APBTs are not superheros. As much as I am amazed at the tenacity, and kindness these dogs exhibit...they are still animals!
My 10 year old god sister is smart enough to know how to behave around dogs, and would never 'taunt' one, not to any degree.

We don't have all of the facts, but to condemn a dog to death because of the few facts we do have is just...I don't even know. A dog shouldn't be able to defend itself? Ever? It doesn't seem fair. Though, yes, I know- very little about life is fair.

User avatar
Red
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 9519
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:35 am
Location: SoCal

Postby Red » Fri May 16, 2008 1:16 am

The APBT is not a guardian breed and should never act like one.


It appears that the dog defended himself though. Not saying that the intensity of the defense action was appropriate but it does not sound like a matter of guarding something, by the little that was said.

Any dog showing aggression toward a human I don’t care what the breed or reason the dog should be euthanized.


We disagree on that.There are of situation where a dog defending himself is a reasonable behavior.I don't know when the world has decided that animals cannot act like animals any more, under all circumstances, but it sure is unfair.

User avatar
Sarah
Dabbling Dog Coddler
Posts: 10361
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:21 am

Postby Sarah » Fri May 16, 2008 1:38 am

If the dog had bit the kid, I might feel a little more lenient about it, but the dog went straight to mauling the kid, so just not sound, IMO. Not that I like the kid, or have much sympathy for him. But that doesn't make the dog okay, either.

User avatar
Amie
Moderator
Posts: 17463
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm
Contact:

Postby Amie » Fri May 16, 2008 7:10 am

Sarah wrote:If the dog had bit the kid, I might feel a little more lenient about it, but the dog went straight to mauling the kid


Well, again, we don't have the full story.

My guess is that a kid who was already poking at a dog with a stick wouldn't just drop the stick and run if the dog bit. I think even a sound animal can be expected to fight back if it had been poked and prodded cruelly, and then when it snapped, got more pokes and prods and hits in the process.

I think most "sound" animals pick flight before fight when it comes to defending themselves. Humans don't seem to pick that behavior, and I can easily see someone choosing to hit and kick and get more violent rather than stopping and leaving.

I don't really know what happened, I don't think any of us do.

But there are certainly instances I can imagine where a moderately sized child with a "weapon" could do enough cruelty to reasonably expect a serious defensive attack from a dog.

User avatar
Chris
Newborn Bully
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Liverpool,UK
Contact:

Postby Chris » Fri May 16, 2008 8:50 am

The thing that upsets me the most about this is because it was a pitbull the press is once again going to slander the breed with all the usual bullshizzle mankiller stories which is a -1 for us pittie defendants. Another thing that annoys me is if i was chained up and some kid started throwing rocks at me and poking me with sticks then i would kick his ass aswell but once again pitbulls -1. I do believe the pitbull could not have been of a sound temperment as my uncles dgo would just run away like "WTF"

User avatar
Jazzy
Pit Bull Princess Pamperer
Posts: 7651
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:52 pm
Location: New England

Postby Jazzy » Fri May 16, 2008 9:32 am

Chris wrote:-1. I do believe the pitbull could not have been of a sound temperment as my uncles dgo would just run away like "WTF"


Perhaps I'm missing something; but I don't get the agruement that a sound dog would run away first.

When threatened , all animals (humans included) have a "fight or flight" response. One is not necessarily better than the other and which response is predominant in any given individual is highly individualized - based partly on genetic make-up, past experiences, the current situation and current emotional state at the time of the incident.

People will generally if they can choose flight, because we have the capacity to reason. We can consider the moral and ethical implications of the situation. That is why people can conceptualize the idea of "excessive force". We can understand that if someone kicks us it is wrong, and we could choose to fight back - but it is not acceptable to chop off the offender's foor with a meat cleaver. Dogs are not cabable of considering morales and ethics and the idea of excessive force.

A dog really cannot think "OK now while this human-thing is really hurting me, and honestly it seems like my life is in danger...I really should run away because it would be wrong to hurt a human if I can avoid it..." Seems to me in a situation where a dog is highly aroused and feels physically threatened...it could fight back. That to me does not make it an unsound dog...it makes it a dog.


Lastly, I just cannot resist, so forgive me for a little anthromorphizing. :tongue:

This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm.


I also am eager to please & brimming with enthusiasm. I'm a social worker. But if someone throws rocks at me and hits me with a stick...I will kick their donkey...and I won't be much worried about using excessive force either :twisted:

User avatar
01momogti
Newborn Bully
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 3:00 am

Postby 01momogti » Wed May 21, 2008 7:09 am

Honesty I can see a lot of dogs responding aggressively to taunting by a child. It does not make it acceptable. However, when it is done by a smaller dog or a dog considered to be a "good" breed then people don't react to it so harshly. The point is that we are very discriminatory towards other people and things. Unfortunately pit bulls are the target of negative stereotypes. Therefore, as owners of a breed that has the undoubted potential to "go bad" and add to the negative stereotype, we should hold our dogs to higher standards. We need to let them know that their behavior is important at all times. Eventually we can all show the world that bully breeds can be held in just as high esteem as other breeds. And I know our dogs are up to the challenge, it just takes consistency. And honestly, you shouldn't leave a child alone with a dog in the first place, because a situation like that wouldn't have happened without proper supervision.

User avatar
PitBoxer
Adolescent Bully
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Postby PitBoxer » Wed May 21, 2008 9:26 am

Soo many questions about this and we just dont know the exact details. But I dont really blame the dog from what I read. I have a breaking point, you have a breaking point, every creature on earth does. Now, a dog with a better temperment might of reacted differently though. Attacking vicious was an extreme reaction and I dont think its acceptable. Maybe one bite and pull away, but to viciously attack, I cant accept that. But as I stated before, what if the child was doing more and the dog felt like its life was threatened? See its way to hard to anaylze the situation without knowing the details, but most of the time, an attack is not acceptable. But I think getting defensive and reacting to someone picking on you isnt soo much of a bad thing. Dogs have feelings and emotions as well, but I do agree a better temperment wouldnt have attacked, atleast not that viciously.

User avatar
pblove
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 15599
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:28 pm
Location: east coast

Postby pblove » Fri May 23, 2008 1:42 pm

luvnstuff wrote:please...taunting..poking with stick.. throwring rocks at it , FOR HOW LONG? I assume the dog is tied out..with no adult/human supervision, the boy had no supervision ?
Dogs in this state taunted are a freakin ticking TIME BOMB , I dont care WHAT it is.
this is the sad state of our world..where are the adults ?..why is the dog tied up and repeatly picked on?. I bet 10 to 1 this isnt the first aggressive, DEFENSIVE move this dog has made..
I blame ALL on this one.

No a dog, pit bull or poodle all have their breaking point. I mean, come on.

I feel for the dog, who paid with his life, I feel for the KID, due to the parents now will have a life of healing, I blame adults/humans for allowing these set ups to happen.

Read this article it states alot on how I feel when I hear of these incidents..

http://www.whosthedog.net/Blog/Entries/ ... at_11.html

that was a very good article and I wish more peope could learn from it.
I am going to copy/paste and send it out to everyone I know and ask them to do the same, maybe someone might read and learn, 'maybe' one kid or one dog might be spared.?

User avatar
BrokenAquarian
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 11122
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:43 pm
Location: 39° 24′ 35″ N, 123° 21′ 20″ W

Postby BrokenAquarian » Fri May 23, 2008 2:26 pm

It only takes so many times teasing a dog, before it hates you with a burning passion.


It's easy to make a dog hate you, even the most stable ones.

User avatar
Amie
Moderator
Posts: 17463
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm
Contact:

Postby Amie » Sat May 24, 2008 7:45 am

This may rock the boat a little, but something occurred to me recently:

We often say "Pit Bulls are never human aggressive in anyway, the ones that were fighting and bit the human trying to separate them would be killed immediately."

Okay, so wouldn't that mean redirection was the trait that was culled? That is, the dog was fighting one dog, and moved that action to another, and that's what was culled.

Isn't redirection a very (VERY) different action than response to abuse, or fear, or any of the other causes of aggressive behavior?

Obviously our dogs are friendly and love most people, but is that argument about their fighting genes really a valid one as far as claiming no pit bull anywhere at anytime should ever be aggressive to a human without being deemed unsound and given a penalty of death?


Return to “Training and Behavior”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests